WWYD?

[RIPDotCotton]

Hi. I have posted on here multiple times before and received great support. Right now, I’m feeling up against it and wanted more advice. DD feels she is male.
Firstly, DD is 18, 19 in 3 months- so, legally an adult. Often on here the advice is to tell them to wait until they are 18 to make changes but realistically they don’t suddenly become a true, independent adult once that birthday rolls around. She is still using female pronouns btw hence me using them.
And this isn’t sudden- she’s been dressing completely male for almost 2 years, along with short hair/hats for the same amount of time. Probably over the past 9 months she stopped shaving everywhere so lots of armpit/leg/facial hair- again as a woman she has a right to do what she likes as far as body hair is concerned.
So far- no changes that cannot be reversed so we have just rolled with it all. Kept her busy- school, sports, a job. We live is a liberal community that has supported these changes- she has lots of (straight) friends which is important because at least, as far as I can see, she isn’t being influenced in real life by other trans teens. However, our little community is a kind of bubble compared to other areas of the country (US) so her reality in other areas could be a completely different experience.
And now she has approached me (not my husband who she feels less safe with as far as his reaction) and wants to go to university as a male. It was a stressful conversation for her and she wasn’t clear about what that means but we skirted around the subject of her name (and I assume pronouns) and she mentioned hating her breasts for years (she has been secretly binding for a while despite me being against it) So heavily hinting that she wants top surgery. She did say she wouldn’t do anything without our support - realistically she can’t as even with insurance the bills would be a lot of money in co-pays.
In this conversation I said I would insist in therapy moving forward - so she has gone ahead and found one specializing in LBGTQ+ - honestly I’m assuming she will just try to find the first one who will affirm her feelings (which could be valid- I’m not denying that) rather than doing lots of work and delving deep into why she feels like this and where the dysphoria comes from:(
And all this before I’ve even involved my husband, who I think will struggle with this and I’ll be in the middle.
Shes legally an adult - although I firmly believe we don’t really become one until our brains fully form in our early 20s! FFS she wants to have a double mastectomy and she can’t even legally drink!!
What would you do/say?? I’m thinking somehow support a new name (heartbreaking) and even pronouns but an absolute no to financially supporting anything permanent?! Will I be damaging my future relationship with her? Will she never trust me again or open up to me?
This is all new and scary and I’m a mess. I couldn’t care less about how she presents herself, would welcome whoever she chooses to love (she is finally saying she is gay but she isn’t open to any family at all and hasn’t openly dated or been proud to be gay which saddens me so much)
This has been 2 years in the making. I’m aware she is an adult (although dependent financially on us for a while yet) so this isn’t a younger teen anymore.
What would you do? Above all I want to maintain a good relationship with her, even of right now I completely oppose any permanent changes for her:(

@peachgreen I think one problem with your statistics is the lack of definition of “trans”. The term has quickly evolved to mean anything from gender non-conforming to full physical transformation through expensive plastic surgery. Without specifying the definition, the statistics are meaningless.

I myself know many examples of young people who have questioned their gender and gone varying distances along the “trans route” but ultimately have realised their bodies are fine and they can live comfortably as they are. Although anecdotes are not statistics, I put more weight on these observations than on the types of studies you mention.

Sorry, @peachgreen — I see you do acknowledge “Statistics are higher for pre-pubescent gender non-conforming (not trans) children – many of whom do go on to formally identify as their biological sex once they hit puberty”. However, (a) my understanding from the many teens/university-aged youth I know, is that the term “trans” is now used freely to mean gender non-conforming; (b) we do not know and probably never will know how many of these people continue to live as “trans” adults; and (c) OP’s daughter is still closer to an adolescent than an adult and so it would be wise to take a cautious approach rather than embrace “transition”. Who knows what she might come to think when she interacts with a wider group of people at university?

I honestly can’t support her going down the route of anything permanent. Even if it damages our relationship somewhat now and she eventually chooses to go down that route I hope she understands that I’ve read a huge amount around this issue and really do feel I’m trying to protect her right now.
Now to try and talk to the husband about this (I’m dreading it and I know he’s going to make it a whole lot worse somehow) and then talk to her properly about how I feel.
I love her to pieces- I adore the person she is right now, smart, independent. I just want to protect her from making a decision that she could severely regret in years to come. Your comment that she is much closer to being an adolescent than a fully fledged adult rang true. I read on here so often ‘they can make that decision themselves when they’re 18’ and yet I think we all know that you don’t suddenly become able to make life changing decisions when the 18th birthday comes around- it’s an arbitrary date that suddenly allows them to hack body parts off and take hormones that sterilize them:(
She can’t even have a legal drink here, yet could do a few therapy sessions and have a double mastectomy- it’s crazy sad:(

If you'd like to DM me where you are in the US I can probably find you parents in a similar situation.

Before puberty blockers and cross sex hormones were a thing, the desistance rate was about 80%.

Exactly. By many definitions, I and most GC women who don't feel that they have a gender identity are trans, or have been trans at some point.

I guess some people use the term solely to mean "people who wish to be the opposite sex" but you can't tell unless they explicitly define it, and defining terms is a big no-no. I think putting even that definition in writing would be deemed uninclusive and transphobic.

I have a similar situation here with a family member of a similar age.

Your DD seems to be a bit confused here: either she is trans and wants to be a man, or she is gay and wants to partner with women. They are not the same thing at all.

You need to not fund any surgery - it is irrevocable and does not take into account the person she will become when she has resolved her confusion. Lesbian women are not attracted to men, however a "man" achieves that identity. If she is gay she will not sort her life out by becoming a man. She will sort it out by owning her homosexuality and being happy with it and finding a female partner.

I know what a minefield this all is - I am tiptoeing through it at the moment.

The bottom line is that as a person she will change with time - I am not remotely like the person I was when I was 18.

RIPDotCotton We are in this storm as well, similar to you. Our DD is 19, 20 next January. She wears a binder, calls herself a male name and presents, well, androgenously, really. She starts her second year at University soon, luckily she got good enough grades to get a course she wanted to do. She's had the roughest few years, through Covid/lockdown where she had no physical teaching whilst at A level college. She's an immature, easily influenced girl who was attached to her phone for pretty much the last 4 years. She has few friends and FWIW I think would be on the autism spectrum if diagnosed. The worry and strain put upon me and our whole lives is immense, I really do know where you are at. My husband has distanced himself from her when she told us she was looking to start testosterone as she tells me that presenting as a (more) believable male would bring her mental happiness.

What are we doing? Standing on the side lines and not sending the emotional emails that I keep in draft, replies to hers. Love bombing her, assuring her we will always be here for her. I have begged her to wait until she is 25 before making irreversible changes to her body, she has done so to date. Essentially watchful waiting.

Sounds like almost an identical situation:(
Covid/lockdown had such an impact on their generation:(
I know exactly how you feel.
Feel free to pm me if you ever want to chat- although I’m at as much of a loss as you are. Just going to love her and hope to god she avoids anything permanent for now.
I have a feeling my husband will do the same as yours.
Can I ask- is this something your family and friends are aware of? All our family are in the UK so somewhat distant. And friends- as liberal as this area is I’m still afraid of judgement towards her/us:(

It stands out to me that she is expecting you to speak to your husband/her father. This seems to be putting alot of pressure on you because you're taking on this expectation unreservedly.
If she is mature enough to move forward in this next transitional stage, she is mature enough to have those conversations herself. I would be gently firm with her that those conversations and navigating those relationships are her responsibility, and that you will support her in XYZ way (perhaps helping her think through how to broach them, being present while she does so etc - whatever works for you) but that you will not be doing it on her behalf.

Could you link us to some of these dozens of global studies, please.

I agree 100%. The pressure on me is immense:(
Although he adores her, I think she suspects (as do I but I haven’t said anything) that he will react badly. She referenced one time, a few years ago, when he and I had an argument over his disparaging comments about Sam Smith choosing to use they/them pronouns. It got heated and (as he is prone to) he doubled down on his opinion. Clearly that’s been preying on her mind and she feels he isn’t as LGBTQ friendly as he makes out he is. I suspect she’s right but, as you said, if she wants to be an adult and deal with serious issues she needs to have those hard conversations. But I do feel for her because when she spoke to me she waited until I was driving her somewhere and she was shaking as she brought it up:(

Wikipedia has links to them, already handily collated.

Update. Another slight ‘save’ in that she texted me the other day (seems to be able to do this because it’s not ‘face to face’) and asked me to wait until she’s away at college before talking to her Dad. I replied that would and that I really want her to get into the therapy and explore why she feels the way she does. I also pointed out that all the changes she has coming up are a lot (new part of the country to live in, roommates, new college etc) and so to concentrate on that right now. I didn’t get a reply but then again I didn’t get push back either.
Right now I’m just trying to slow things down and buy time as much as I can. As far as I know she’s going to college as is (not sure if she’ll use a different name etc) but everything official is still in her female name.
This is a hard journey- thanks for all your support so far- it’s meant a lot.

Oh yes, that well known unbiased source which is totally peer reviewed.

@RIPDotCotton sounds like you are hanging in there. Do you know whether you'll be able to find a therapist who won't immediately affirm but will actually explore?

Hi- sadly she has sorted out her own therapist in the place she is going to college (as is her right as an adult)
Therapy is mostly covered by insurance but I’m not sure how many sessions ours covers.
I had a brief look online and she is an LGBTQ friendly therapist- so I suspect affirming:(
During one of our text exchanges a few weeks ago I did tell DD that I wanted the therapy to be in depth and exploratory about why she feels the way she feels rather than just affirming whatever she tells her! I didn’t get a reply.
I think right now that’s about all I can do.

In reply to ripdotcotton

What a difficult position.

There is so much saturation in the current ideology and words like ' 'support' 'confirm' can make you think that you are notvsupporting your child if you dont go with the current ideology.

Surely anyone would think twice, or three times or 100 times, in fact, have serious doubts before 'supporting' their offspring to do anything so drastic and irreversible as take castrating hormones and surgery.

I beg you to read
When Kids Say They're Trans: A Guide for Parents
Book by Lisa Marchiano, Sasha Ayad, and Stella O'Malley

Being the parent of a gender-questioning child is confusing. There is a lot of advice out there, but much of it goes against what many parents feel instinctively is the right approach. And the stakes are very high if you get it wrong.
There have been many books written for parents who are facilitating a child’s gender transition, but almost none for parents who decide that social or medical transition is not the best option for their child.
Written by three professionals working in the field – Sasha Ayad, Lisa Marchiano and Stella O’Malley – When Kids Say They’re Trans is explicitly a resource for parents who want their children to flourish, but do not believe that hasty medicalisation is the best way to ensure long-term health and well-being.
Parents who have successfully helped their children navigate gender distress without resorting to surgery and hormones have done so by actively taking the reins, not waiting until they found the right therapist or doctor. When Kids Say They’re Trans will tell you all you need to know, and will give you the confidence to trust your own instincts.

Acting on your sexuality while feeling dysphoria can increase dysphoria by adding sexual trauma. Your only real option is to support your child. It's obviously not a phase.

I am supporting my child. I just want her to take it slowly and be a bit more mature (and have a more developed brain!) before she commits to medical sterilization and a double mastectomy! I know she’s had ‘some fun’ with a couple of girls so far and no trauma, but she isn’t openly celebrating being gay and I want her to be proud to be gay!

But being gay and being trans are totally different. Your child may be trans and heterosexual.

The brain can be damaged by the ongoing trauma of having to remain in a body that doesn't feel like your own

I don't know if it's something you'd find helpful, but I read the gender dysphoria therapy book written by the Tavistock whistleblowers, Sue and Marcus Evans. I had seen them interviewed by Benjamin Boyce, and bought the book after that.
My daughter isn't under a therapist (she's 14, so a bit younger than yours - which I appreciate is different) because she has refused to do so. So I got the book to help me work out how to speak to her about it all in an open and neutral way. The Evans are very much about watchful waiting, rather than affirmation, and picking through a differential diagnosis about what else might be triggering a rejection of the body. They are completely non-judgemental about people who identify as trans, having worked in that field to support transition. But they are also very clear on how things shouldn't be viewed solely through a gender identity lens.
Apologies if I've already mentioned this book up thread. I normally post on the Feminism Sex and Gender board and I've mentioned it on a couple of threads there too, when talking with other parents in a similar situation.

Evidence for this please? Not just scaremongering?

Would you like evidence that gender dysphoria is traumatic or that trauma causes brain damage?

I'd like evidence that not altering your body causes brain damage please. As that's what you are saying.

Your child may be trans and heterosexual.

OP says she's attracted to women. She's gay or bisexual.

Not if this child is trans and attracted to women. Men who are attracted to women only are heterosexual.

I don't entertain arguments that suggest otherwise