7yo daughter tells people she’s a boy

[Happydays87]

Morning- first post for me, looking for some experienced advice pls

Our 7yo daughter loves boys clothes, shoes & wont entertain anything else. She’s always been allowed to choose. She’s happy to socialise with all children, but main friendships are always with boys... fine with us.

Just over a year ago she asked if she could shave her hair off, we let her. No problem, it suits her fine and it’s practical (no more headlice, woo!)

We’ve noticed in the last 6 months whenever she meets new children, she will tell them she’s a boy. They always assume she is anyway; during play when they say “he” she won’t correct them. It’s a mix of both - sometimes she tells them she’s a boy, sometimes she just doesn’t correct. I saw a boy the other day ask why she had some girls stuff in her bedroom, she said it was her sisters ! (Hasn’t got one )

My thoughts so far are that other children don’t really care if she’s “he or she”, they just want to get on and play. I feel sad that she’s not confident enough to tell people she’s a girl but enjoys being different & that’s OK?

For info There are a few things which OH will not allow- wearing boys swim trunks and no top (she has a plain costume), wearing boys boxer shorts. She has plain girls school shoes.

He has told her that lying isn’t OK, we are proud of her and happy for her to have freedom to choose, but he says she won’t build trusting friendships with people if she lies all the time ... my worry is OH has said she will no longer be allowed to wear boys clothes if she continues to lie about who she is! I don’t want to do more harm than good. (Would prefer not to start having huge bust ups at home either!)

Thanks

I wanted to be like my dad so I dressed in a boyish fashion. Plus I had read The Famous Five in which the most exciting character was a girl who pretended to be a boy. Girls were too prissy and not fun in my opinion. I grew up to be a woman who's married with kids and still feels more comfortable in jeans and tshirt. My friend (a boy) was obsessed with ballet and wearing makeup but grew up to be a big muscular bloke who served in Afghanistan.

Kids will be what they will be. They all go through phases. All you can do is be supportive and sensible.

Let her wear the shoes and underwear she wants.
There's no earthly reason why she shouldn't.
It already sounds like she has absorbed the false societal message from her short seven years - which is that 'things' are what defines boys and girls, and bodies are supposed to match 'things'.

This is getting very common, sadly.

She is associating 'girl' with 'stuff' she doesn't like, and in rejecting 'stuff' she is also rejecting 'girl'.

I would pour all my energy into being positive about both her body and the stuff she likes and unpicking every mistake she makes in thinking that girls ARE a certain way.

Your OH is reinforcing the problem. He is telling her that the clothes she wants are 'for boys'. So she believes the only valid way to have the stuff she wants is to 'become a boy'.

What's the name of the book you mentioned?

Is it Goodnight Stories for rebel girls? Just wondering.

Let her wear the shoes and underwear she wants.
There's no earthly reason why she shouldn't.
It already sounds like she has absorbed the false societal message from her short seven years - which is that 'things' are what defines boys and girls, and bodies are supposed to match 'things'.

This is getting very common, sadly.

She is associating 'girl' with 'stuff' she doesn't like, and in rejecting 'stuff' she is also rejecting 'girl'.

I would pour all my energy into being positive about both her body and the stuff she likes and unpicking every mistake she makes in thinking that girls ARE a certain way.

Your OH is reinforcing the problem. He is telling her that the clothes she wants are 'for boys'. So she believes the only valid way to have the stuff she wants is to 'become a boy'.

What's the name of the book you mentioned?

Is it Goodnight Stories for rebel girls? Just wondering.

Why would the GP be looking at her "privates"????

My DD didn't tell people that she was a boy, but other than that she was just the same at that age. Most people assumed she was a boy and she didn't correct them. For a while she would only wear her brother's hand me downs, and she would even reject some of them as being too girly. By about 6 she would let me buy new clothes for her but only boy stuff (yes, I know a lot of clothes are unisex, but she wanted blue/grey/black/red from the boys' section of the shop). She has always worn the uniform trousers at school, I never even bothered to buy a uniform skirt for her. She wears boys jersey boxers. She kept her hair short and had it cut at the barber shop, although that was at least partly to do with having tricky to manage hair.

I have never made an issue out of it, I think she should wear what she wants and be the person she wants to be. I definitely didn't want her to have to fight for her style because I think it'll be easier for to her try out different looks if she doesn't feel under pressure or as though I approve of one thing but not another.

She's 10 yo now and has started to grow her hair. The other day we went to T K Maxx and she bought pale pink shorts and a deep pink t-shirt (from the boys' rail, she still won't look at the girls' stuff). She looks quite girly now with the longer hair and pink outfit, but I haven't commented at all except to say that I like the t-shirt, and her only comment was that the shorts are comfortable.

I forgot to say that she always wears boys' shoes, which I quite approve of as girls' school shoes especially are a lot less sturdy than the boys' versions.

Some good points there - yes BarrackerBarmer that’s the book. She loves it (we all do, actually)! The point about associating things with gender is a good one, as is the point about helping to find positive responses socially to help her tell the truth. That’s something i’ll definitely work on. Yes OH is certainly finding it hard, but the advice here is helpful, so let’s see if we can all work together in a more useful way !

Leave her alone with it, I firmly believe there is no such thing as boys toys or games versus girls. I was very similar to her for most of my childhood, though didn't actually want to be a boy. As for the swimming thing - I'd let her wear trunks with a rash vest, you can get them in all colours. Our DD wears her brothers old trunks with a rash vest for sun protection even though she wants a bikini ( not happening!). Our DD also was borrowing her brothers trunk pants as she was more comfortable in them so we got her some of her own, in dayglo colours that she liked.
Although your DH might be worrying I can tell you now that allowing her to express herself now will only be good for her in the long run and placing limits on what she can do now won't stop her from becoming who she'll become, whether that's straight, gay, 'girly' 'boyish', later in life. Sounds like she's resilient and doing her own thing, which is great. It's not always easy for kids to go against the grain, especially not girls I think.I'd embraced her lack of self-consciousness.

the thing is, all these gender stereotypes and gendered clothing are a culturally specific invention. They are not actually anything to do with being male or female.
I find it bizarre that we have got from a place of people trying to remove expectations of conforming to stereotypes a few years ago, to everybody saying that not having an affinity to these stereotypes means you actually ARE a different sex.
How the hell can we expect all boys to just be into "boys things" and all girls to be into girls things. Theyre just things and people have different interests, different dress senses, different feelings about our bodies. We are still our own biological sex even if we dont like it much.

Totally agree Branleuse. I believe they gendered clothing particularly now has a huge influence on self perception and self confidence, and how we perceive others.

My dd would love to shave her head as she hates having her hair brushed. She prefers to wear boys clothes as they fit her better and boys trousers always have pockets. The shoes are often wider and have her favourite paw patrol characters on so she always picks them. All children go through phases of pretending to be something or someone else. Your daughter is playing pretend as a boy the same way she might have pretended to be a horse or a pirate when younger.

To be fair she is right about the ‘girls’ school shoes - they are bloody awful. ‘Boys’ stuff is just more practical.

Happydays87

Good guess then!

That is an otherwise excellent book, which inexplicably, amongst the stories of women and girls breaking expectations and stereotypes, has included a story about a little boy. It begins thus:

“Once upon a time, a boy named Coy was born. Coy loved dresses, the colour pink, and shiny shoes… One night, Coy asked his mom: ‘When are we going to get me fixed into a girl-girl."

This may not be the MOST helpful story if you want to address the false belief that dresses/pink/shiny shoes = girl.

I'd suggest sticking the pages together for that one. With pink sparkly glitter glue.

To be fair she is right about the ‘girls’ school shoes - they are bloody awful. ‘Boys’ stuff is just more practical.

Too right. Dd sussed this when she was 3, which led to a protracted and somewhat heated with Clark’s, involving their HQ. Since this also came on the back of them measuring DS as 3 different sizes on 3 different occasions over the space of 2 days, we have not shopped there since (5 years). DD is a big fan of Kicker Boots, in various colours, or the M&S knock offs!

I really think this is a direct result of the intense polarisation of gendered stereotypes that have enjoyed a resurgence in the last 30 years or so.

Everything is so divided that she feels she needs to jump ship in order to reject the princess stuff that is forced onto girls.

Your OH isn’t helping much by labelling the clothes she likes as “boys clothes”.

Of course the poor child wants others to think she’s a boy. Because she know that as soon as they know she’s a girl she’ll be treated differently.

BarrackerBarmer thanks, but I think you & some of the other people here might’ve misunderstood the purpose of the thread a little?

I don’t want advice on how to change my daughter, I don’t want her to be anything other than what she is, and I certainly have no worries about letting her read her book!! Another book we’re a fan of is “Bills new frock”, another great story.

It would be great to hear from people who have worked with their OH and children in positive ways to get the right balance. I’ve had some great tips about helping to plan for what to say, and building up confidence.

We actually had a great moment yesterday where she corrected the doctors receptionist and said “I’m not a young man, I’m a young lady actually” and I was super proud of her. OH and I have agreed are gonna keep working on it with her.

Comments about gluing pages shut, people calling me and OH sexist, arguing semantics over which ‘section’ her clothes might’ve been bought from... all really unhelpful! I’m self assured enough not to be bothered by any of it these days, but feel sorry for others on here who might be left feeling anxious.

The bit about glue was half joking but I'm surprised by your response.

You have a book which has reinforced ideas that the stereotypical things a child likes MEANS they are the opposite sex.

And you have a child that likes stereotypical 'boy things', is informed by her dad that she can't have them because they are for boys, not for her, and so she is announcing to people that she is a boy and doesn't want people to know she's a girl.

I haven't suggested you change your daughter! The opposite in fact. I've suggested you change the messages you and your partner are giving her.

Which, whether you intend to or not, include reinforcement that what you like can mean you are the opposite sex.
You husband is denying her clothes on the basis that they are only allowable for boys, and threatening to restrict her even further.
You have given her a book which celebrates pink sparkly stuff as being inextricably linked with bring a girl. Have you talked to her about how silly that is, or left her to absorb those messages?

I'm unsure what you think is the bigger problem: your daughter liking "boy things" or your daughter thinking and announcing that this makes her a boy?

If you want advice, parents are gently offering it and suggesting that you can help your child separate the concepts of boy and girl from likes and dislikes.

Clothes and toys are for all children.

You sound like a really nice mum who's got the right idea about being supportive without just letting her imagination run too wild. I think you should talk to her about why does she like to be a boy, and try to help her tackle those things.

Can I also gently ask if there's any chance she might be on the spectrum?

It's not leaping across from what you're writing (and non-conformity is routine in lots of children) - but it's also massively underdiagnosed in girls and women so I like to mention it when I think it could be relevant.

I was very like this for years as a child, I hated social expectations on girls as boys had it easier, hated puberty, and also had sensory issues with clothes and stuff. There was a great thread in Feminism Chat recently where lots of people talked about this, and I noticed lots of autistic women especially talking.

thanks mogleflop thats interesting. she does get some extra behavioural support at school but nothing specific per se :)

the clue is in the thread title... we've no issue with what she wears or how she wants to be, but telling people she's a boy has made things very hard for her socially. we're just trying to support her with that.

goodnight stories for rebel girls is definitely not a book about reinforcing stereotypes it has helped us to achieve what we wanted, to show that women are all different and successful in different ways. the fact that theres 1 page in 100 about a boy who likes pink sparkles is neither here nor there imo. Our DD loves the book.

my OH has been supportive for years and has always given her the freedom to explore and do whatever. in fact it was he who championed the short hair. unfortunately, last week he cracked and there was an ultimatum - "learn to tell the truth, or some of the freedom will be taken away". we didn't agree on this, but I can't disagree with him on the lying - its not the way forward.

some people have said children play games, they tell people they are a dog, they tell people they are James Bond - yes, of course they do. But most kids can play along with that! I've seen first hand when our DD has lied to people and at some point the play date has gone sour when other children start to distrust her. This is all we're trying to help with.

Re the clothes - theres always going to be someone out there who tells her shes weird for wearing "boys clothes" and having "boys hair". I tell her shes awesome every day (and she is!), we have little pep talks, she knows we're not really bothered about her hair and clothes (or she wouldn't have it in the first place!) I/we can tell her that clothes are for everyone, but when she walks into Primark, or Ralph Lauren, or anywhere... she sees what everyone else does. "BOYS 8-14" section, "GIRLS 8-14" section, written all over the walls. On the labels inside the clothing most of the time. I can't tell you how many of her tshirts and shorts say "BOYS" in the label...

I don't think there's any escape from any of that. Until we get some big retailers who commit to neutral childrens clothing lines then it'll always be an issue socially. What I'm striving for is to give her the confidence to tell people she wears it 'cos she wants to, she's proud of who she is, and she knows i've got her back. We've had a few wins this week already so I'm feeling pretty positive now :)

Don't worry it might change sooner or later. She is still very young and still discovering new things.

One of DDs best friends in primary school was Dave.

Dave was a girl called Beth.

Beth is now in her early 20s and a lovely young lady.

DD2 was a dog for a long time - or so she told everyone. She crawled round on all fours a lot and asked to eat her meal from the floor sometimes we let her.

DD2 is also now a lovely young lady in her 20s.

Can you teach her some snappy retorts?

'You don't really think that the clothes you wear make you a boy or a girl do you?'

The trouble is that at this age many peers will still have some very fixed ideas, for example that taller children are older. Our vertically challenged dd became quite scathing in her replies! There will also be some peers whose parents do reinforce gender stereotypes quite strongly who might be particularly resistant. Just keep discussing at home how clothes don't make you a boy or a girl.

I know of a young child of 6 years of who is very similar, perhaps a bit more extreme. She refuses to wear anything other than boys clothes, has her hair very short, tells people she is a boy and refuses to answer or ets very upset and emotional if people refer to her as a girl or “she”. She has been like this since 3 years old. Completely her own choice, not parent lead at all although they’ve been calm and supportive but definitely not encouraging if that makes sense. She looks completely like a boy now so other kids just assume she is a boy amen she likes it that way. Her Mum told me she just naturally thinks she’s a boy and uses the boys toilets at school and refuses to use the girls as she isn’t a girl. I’ve met her many times, it’s not a show or attention seeking or anything other than she feels she is a boy. A true case of a person feeling they have been born into the wrong body I guess. She deals with it incredibly well as seems happy. Just go with it.

Age 6 I did the same thing. I suspect I was copying George in the Famous Five books. Plus I liked being outside, climbing trees etc. And I had three of the dullest prissiest sisters ever ( in my 6yo opinion). I regarded them with contempt. My older brother had much more fun so I wanted to be like him. I chose boys clothes, shoes, hair. My mum just went along with it.
When I was 13, I met Adrian Creasy, new boy at school, my knees went oddly wobbly and I stopped wanting to be a boy.
Maybe this will happen, maybe it won’t but I wouldn’t get too tied up about it. There is plenty of time for her to work out her feelings