please help dh contacted by csa re: dsd, sorry long...

[humptynumpty]

Before we even get started on this, can I just say that I am here for advice and am aware that the way my dh has acted in the past in not acceptable and am not here to be judged for that.
Dh was married and divorced more than 12 years ago. He and ex have a dd who is now 14. He has never had any part in her life, until this year when dsd contacted dh through friendsreunited. He began emailing her in a very gentle way which he has never hidden from me. He has never been offensive to her mother or told her anything upsetting etc... when she has asked why he isn't with her mum etc, only that it didn't work out. DSD was keen to meet dh. i was very wary, but agreed that if she really wanted it, we could arrange it. he contacted ex-wife and explained situation. ex-wife put her foot down and said no. ex is remarried and ex has stated quite clearly that dh is not the dad and is not allowed to refer to himself as dad, her new partner is the dad. she will not allow dh to see dsd, and we agreed to leave it until she is older and can meet unsupervised etc (ie until she is 18). Also dsd calls herself by the new partners name, although it turns out her name has not been changed legally, but she uses it in all situations.
Today we got a letter from csa saying ex is applying for maintanance. I agree that dh should pay for his child, but cannot understand the csa form. the form wants to know all about me and my kids as well as the amounts of child benefit and tax credits we earn.
What i want to know is, if we start paying maintanance which of course we will have to, does that mean that ex cannot forbid dh from seeing dsd and also that she can say that he isn't allowed to be called "dad"? Also does that entitle dh to be more involved in dsd's life. At the moment, they are only allowed to email, ex has banned him from using msn, texting and phoning...
Sorry I am pregnant and hormonal and worried about my kids etc.... I just want this sorted out as quickly and easily as possible, any advice greatfully recieved.

CSA/maintenance payments have nothing to do with contact arrangements they are treated as 2 completely sperate entities

Cargirl is correct, whether or not your husband pays maintenence has absolutely no bearing on whether or not he can see her.

The form asks for details about your children as the amount of dependents your husband has will affect the amount of maintenence he pays.

You can calculate the amount he will have to pay on the csa website.

With regard to your husbands "rights".
The law states that it is the child who has rights, the parent has responsibilities. These are not the same thing.
As your husband was married to the mother he will have automatic parental responsibility for his dd.
This is a basic framework if you like that recognises he is the father but does not mean that he can demand contact etc.
TBH, after 12 yrs of no contact, regular emails etc is pretty good. At 14 his dd is growing up and will be able to make her own mind up whether she meets him at some point.

If I were your husband, I would continue with email etc if possible but not push for contact unless the dd insists she wants this.

You can speak to Families Need fathers to find out more about parental responsibility and to get support for your husband to help him to build a relationship with his dd in a child focussed manner.

Having a dd who is about to turn 13 I would stick to email contact anyway because she will be going through a hormonal and turbulent time. It's not fair on her Mum and "dad" for their to suddenly to be another adult to going running to play happy families and leave them to do all the hard work and discipline.

Hopefully they can get to know each other well via email until she is older and her Mum feels less threatened/undermined.

I agree with you cargirl, dh can't just show up and say "here's daddy" but at the same time, I don't see how the ex can start demanding money but totally refuse to accept that dh has any role in dsd's life.

The absolute overriding principle is "the best interests of the child". It's (probably) in your stepdaughter's best interests for your DH to contribute towards her maintenance, and it's (quite probably) in her best interests for contact with your DH to be reintroduced in a very gentle "softly softly" sort of manner.

Think about it from the point of view of your stepdaughter's mother. Her ex-husband left when she was very small, she's had to bring her up first alone and then with the help of her husband who has taken on the role of father to her daughter. Now suddenly the ex-husband is back in touch, just as her daughter is hitting her vulnerable teenage years.

She doesn't want to see her DD get hurt -- specifically, I'd imagine, she doesn't want your DH to establish face-to-face contact, build emotional ties with her DD and then walk away again leaving her to pick up the pieces. Read posts on MN for a while and you'll see that that's not at all atypical behaviour for a slightly flaky non-resident parent. OK, so your DH has no intention of behaving that way and wants to behave responsibly, but she has no reason to know or believe that.

It does sound as though it was your DH who decided that he didn't want or intend to have any role in his daughter's life (apologies if that's not the case). His ex is just sticking to the pattern that he set. And your DH isn't his daughter's dad. He's her father, but someone else has spent the last several years being her dad.

As someone else said, after the history so far regular email contact is good. Pushing for more is likely to backfire and benefit no one.

Actually the ex left dh not the other way round. Dh was given money by ex's dad to buy him out of their marital home. She also got a solicitor to draw up a letter asking dh to give up his parental rights to dsd. I don't know all the ins and outs of the whole thing, I wasn't there, it was all over long before we met.
Now it just sounds like I'm making excuses for him, maybe I am.
all I have seen, is that dsd suddenly gets in touch and is super keen to get to know dh. She has done this without her mother and stepfathers knowledge and approval. Dsd is very keen to meet up and so on, if she had her way, she would chat on msn, email and text every day. I personally have spoken to the ex-wife, and she has stated that she is anti any relationship between dsd and dh other than the occasional email and she has actually banned any texts, msn, phone calls and so on. I don't know if dsd is just going through a teenage rebellion phase so we have tried to keep our distance and not to encourage her. I mean saying it's a big step to meet up and there's plenty of time etc and keeping contact polite and not overly friendly and certainly not encouraging phone calls etc (she got our number from phone book).
It is very difficult for me to handle this situation and support dh in this, especially now money is being involved and I'm sorry if it's not fair to dsd, but I'm more worried about my own kids than the ex suddenly deciding to claim for csa maintanance only now after 14 years.

Mutt, you're right, banning contact has had the totally opposite effect.
But I still don't understand why she has only decided to claim now, not 14 years ago? Undoubtably dh should have been paying for the last 14 years, but why wait till now? It just feels like she is pissed off by dsd contacting dh and in response she is going to csa to piss him off.

Humpty it sounds like you and your dh are trying to do the right thing by his dd emotinally, hopefully the maintenance will be affordable and it won't be for many years - until she is 18/finishes full time education.

The more the ex makes an issue out of it the bigger an issue it will be. Try and be casual but open because what else can you do really? Be positive and respective to her about her mum and "dad" so she realises that you recognise that they are her parents.

Hope it goes well - don't envy you!

thanks cargirl!
just want it to be sorted out. Apologies for being hormonal and silly

"I don't see how the ex can start demanding money but totally refuse to accept that dh has any role in dsd's life."

Its not a transaction. You dont just pay for your childs upkeep if you get something in return.
The mother had no choice, did she?
You ahve a child and you're comitted to 18+ yers of maintaing them. (unless you disappear on them of course)Where's the choice in that? What is there to feel put out by? He's effectively saved 12 years worth of child support.
As others have said contact and money are seperate.
Should he pay? Yes, she is his daughter - he, along with xw, brought her into the world.
Should he have more contact than the odd email? Completely up to the mum to decide.

Humpty, maybe she is thinking - if you want to suddenly rock up and play dad then you can bloody well share some of the burden.

And could you really blame her if that were the case? I reckon I'd have similar thoughts myself.

Jeremy, you're right, if I was her I'd be pretty pissed off that he has got away for 12 years of no involvement, financial or emotional or anything.
Mutt, I have a feeling that you have hit the nail on the head, things get tricky at home, dsd has the idea contacting real dad will help in some way, actually has opposite effect and now ex is pissed off and dsd stuck in the middle.
The whole thing is an emotional minefield, and sadly as adults we have to try to get on with it without making too much fuss. I guess I can count myself lucky that when my own parents split up, they were able to remain amicable and I never felt caught in the middle.
Ex is seemingly still very bitter (and probably rightly so, if she was left "holding the baby"), but it's not fair on dsd for her to be so publicly bitter. Dsd seems pretty naive, or maybe she's just a typical teenager. This morning more than anything I just feel a terrible sadness for this poor kid who has grown up not knowing half her family and has now got into something that she really doesn't know how to deal with and has no support in it. I looked at the calculator and basically ex will get £8 per week from dh. Somehow I don't think when she realises this it is going to help the situation at all.

Goodness, how on earth can she only get £8 per week. That seems very small, are you thinking about offering her more?.

I've only ever heard of such a small amount when someone is on benefits - is most of your income benefits or tax credits?

Laurie, apparently if your income is between £100 and £200 per week and you have other children who live with you full time plus some other factors this is roughly what you are expected to pay. I must admit that I was quite shocked.
I know that it sounds terrible but just now I don't think that we can afford much more than £8 per week.
But lets be honest, this isn't about money. dsd's mother and father both work full time and will have their own rights to tax credits etc in the same way that we do. This maintanance will not be supplementing their income in any meaningful way that I can see.
dh and I are self employed and we do not claim any benefits other than child benefit and tax credits, but we are by no means wealthy, sadly!!

Echo others who have said money and contact are quite separate issues, but would also point out that although DSD is only a child, she isn't an infant and has made her feelings pretty clear by tracking down her biological father. It is her RIGHT to have a relationship with her father and despite what has happened in the past, the mother is not entitled to deny the child that right.

Other people have speculated about DSD's motives - I don't think we should assume that her situation with her mother and step mother is idyllic and that her desire to find her father is just adolescent drama. It may be that, for whatever reason, she actually needs her father and contact should be pursued (at her pace, of course).

Whilst approaching this must be from a position of humility on OP's hubby's side, I don't agree that the final decision is the mothers.

Update....
Case is progressing through CSA, dh has been making interim payments for the last 2 months.
latest contact from ex stating that dh has absolutely no place in dsd's life. Ex and her husband are dsd's mum and dad. Fair enough, but the way it was worded was basically, pay up, shut up and fuck off!
Ex also stated that dsd is upset because ex has been unable to change dsd's surname by deedpoll becuase dh has parental responsibility and must give his consent. Apparently dsd feels isolated and "different" from her half sisters and step dad because her name is different to theirs. Dh emailed ex and said that he was happy to continue to deal with maintanace thru CSA and wanted to pay towards dsd's keep, but suggested that he takes a step back from dsd's life seeing as it seems to be causing so much upset. Ex states dsd is confused about who is her actual "dad", ex states dsd is unsure how to deal with finding her real dad now she has found him iyswim. Ex states dsd feels pressure to meet dh, although he has never asked to meet her and she is the one who raises it and has to be discouraged by us because ex won't allow it etc...
So dh offered to sign his consent to allow dsd to change her name, hoping that this would help dsd since ex made such an issue of it. DH also told ex that he would be happy not to pursue meeting dsd etc as it was obviously causing too much upset. So in a nutshell, he agreed to help dsd change her name, then pay maintanance and then stay quiet in the background.
Now I can see that ex probably doesn't believe him, but instead of starting a row with dh, she started on dsd. Last night we got this heartbreaking email from dsd saying my mum says you don't want to see me, you don't care about me, you aren't interested in me, you have other kids and you don't want me etc....
WTF do we do now. so the ex wants to paint out dh to be the bad guy. Ok, but why would anybody want to upset their hormonal and already confused teenage daughter by telling them that their biological father doesn't give a shit and never has wanted or does want anything to do with them? Especially because this is not the case?
What is the point in us trying to respond and reassure her when ex seems to have done such a good job of making us the enemy?

I am so and . I read that email with tears running down my face. This poor confused kid is being totally shit on by her mother. Maybe ex felt the need to keep dsd in the picture but why not soften the blow a bit. Why not say, he's an arse you're better off without him if you have to, why say he doesn't want you???????

Not used to stepfamilies, so treat my advice with caution, but I think your DH definitely needs to respond. Without calling ex a liar, surely he can say that he cares very much about her and only backed off because he thought it was causing her trouble. Of course ex might go mad if she hears about it and dsd might be more confused. But better to hear that her biological father does care. If she doesn't believe it now, the knowledge will at least stay inside her so that when she is older and hasn't got her mother messing with her head, she can better understand.

thanks nickname just so shocked that any mother would deliberately try to mess with the mind of an already confused teenager, it's heartbreaking

shameless bump

anyone?

I'm not experienced in step families either but I think I would send an email back stating the truth but very gently, saying he'd spoken with her mum and he wanted to do what makes her happy, without going into too much detail, so that it doesn't look like you are saying bad things about her mum.

I don't see how this can be sorted out happily without her having some kind of contact with her dad to be honest.