I have no Power of attorney. How will this impact me and my dad. He can be very stubborn

[mumma24]

My dad is 85
lives alone, happy that way and not lonely.
he is very stubborn.
health not great, swollen red legs, breathless, can’t walk without his zimmer. Flat bound. Never goes out and doesn’t want to either.
Has no friends. Fell out with his only friend 10 weeks ago that used to visit daily. Doesn’t want to make up with him.
he owns his flat. Has some savings.
I visit every week and do his food shop.
after watching the Martin Lewis programme on the importance of having power of attorney I have spoken to him about this. He doesn’t think it’s necessary.
my question is what would happen if he lost capacity for example had a stroke or fall went to hospital or care home. How would I sell his flat to pay for his care or pay his bills etc.
Anyone managed ok without having POA?

My friend has just told me about that programme and is doing a POA for herself now. I'm going to do it soon but it'll be £180 that I can ill afford.

I got my very reluctant DM to do one by explaining the costs of not doing one...

I never quite got to a number but it's a lot more than the cost of the LPAs, like several thousand more and takes ages.

my question is what would happen if he lost capacity for example had a stroke or fall went to hospital or care home. How would I sell his flat to pay for his care or pay his bills etc.

You can't sell his flat. You don't need to do anything. You don't need to pay for hospital care.

Social services will step in and decide which care home he goes into. It could be anywhere in the country but they will “try” to get one near to where he currently lives, depending on space and availability (this is what I was told by a particularly unpleasant social worker). The council will put a charge on your Dad’s flat to pay the care home and then charge you interest on top.

The LPA needs to be registered with the Office of the Public Guardian before you can get any access to finances and welfare (you need one LPA for each) and welfare is most important as it means you get to make the decisions in the hospital, not the NHS.

This will only be registered when your Dad loses capacity so he needn’t worry that you’re going to step in next week and go on holiday with all his funds while he grinds his teeth at home.

It takes a good few months for this all to go through the admin route so do your best to persuade him now.

You would have to apply for Deputyship through the Court of Protection to manage his property and financial affairs. This costs into the hundreds, or the thousands if it goes to court. It also takes 6-9 months to be issued, during which time his money will be inaccessible. So if he's living at home with carers, someone will have to pay for his food and bills and wait until you have access to his accounts to refund them. You might be able to convince Social Services to allocate a small shopping budget in these circumstances, but it's not guaranteed. Once deputyship is granted, you'd have to complete a financial assessment for any funded care he has received, and there may have to be money to pay back from his assets. You will also have to prepare an annual report for the Court of Protection explaining how you have spent money as a deputy.

It's not worth the hassle, believe me! Power of Attorney for finance won't come into effect unless he is incapacitated or wants you to take control, but once it is in effect, you will be able to manage his funds immediately, which will best support his interests.

"Social services will step in and decide which care home he goes into. It could be anywhere in the country but they will “try” to get one near to where he currently lives, depending on space and availability (this is what I was told by a particularly unpleasant social worker). The council will put a charge on your Dad’s flat to pay the care home and then charge you interest on top."

Try telling him this.....also it won't be you who pays the interest, it will come out of your father's estate. None of this will affect you, it will affect him.

You would have to be a court appointed deputy to deal with his finances if he was no longer able to. That can take a very long time to set up (has to go via the courts as the name suggests) and is a more time consuming and much more costly process with ongoing costs. You would have to cover any costs for your Dad while it was being set up, apart from existing DD’s for bills etc.

The financial one us far more important imo than the health and welfare one but if you’re doing one you might as well do both.

i had it for my DF, and DH and I are attorneys for one another (in our 40’s). If I’m knocked over by a bus tomorrow it’s reassuring to know that DH can act on my behalf no matter what.

yeah but if her father is not going to agree, she can just refuse to do any of this and let him get on with it.

Point out the things that he'll want you to do, but you won't be able to.

Will he need you to do his shopping? Need you to pay his bills? Need you to phone the bank on his behalf? You need an LPA to do those things for him.

Does he want social services to make decisions for him, or you? Does he want you to choose a care home for him that he would like and be happy in, or SS to put him in the first place they can find?

Don't offer him examples that would inconvenience you. Offer examples where he would have no control and no choices if he doesn't give you the legal authority to make decisions in his interests

Well she can do, but then the Local Authority will appoint a deputy on his behalf and will make the decisions. That costs money - he will have to pay a fee to the solicitor acting as his deputy. The LA deputy might also make decisions that the family are not in agreement with - for example for him to remain at home with care visits rather than be admitted to a care home, if the Social Services care needs assessment deems this appropriate. The family would have no say in what was agreed. So generally, families prefer to have themselves appointed as deputy. But you are absolutely right, she can just walk away and let the local authority deal with it all.

Not necessarily.

With a lot of banks you can be added as a trusted person to their account so you can do shopping and deal with bills etc. This obviously wouldn’t cover things like selling the house but you can get permission for day to day financial things in an hour appointment at the bank, no POA required.

Not if they don't have capacity. They cannot manage their own finances if they lack the capacity to do so. That's what makes this so complicated, once it happens, the barriers come down and none of the "easy" options exist any more....

Social care don't place people into the first care home they come across.We give options for the family to choose from.

Not in my mum's case.

I dare say that different LAs work differently.

that depends on whether there are many (any) options that can supply what the person needs and how the SS budget is. Its not clear whether this particular person would be able to self-fund which is another issue.

And your Dad can’t give you his bank cards to use in a shop. That is fraud, even if you are buying him slippers on his behalf. Only the card holder can use the card.

With all due respect, that depends on the circumstances. With my uncle, the brokerage department tried 45 homes before they found one that felt they could meet his needs (spoilers, they couldn't, but were short of residents and wanted the cash). Social Services told us that this was the only option and that this was the home he was going to....

That shows they did a thorough search didnt just put him anywhere which seemed to be what a pp was saying happens.

They did just put him anywhere though. It was the other 45 homes who refused to have him due to challenging behaviour, he was put in home 46 who were the first to say yes....

He’ll manage fine without POA because he won’t be handling the mess. And you can just walk away and leave social services to manage it all as PP have said. Obviously that will be a bit of a waste of his money, but he probably won’t know much about what’s going on.

OP as PPs have said you can apply for Deputyship when he loses capacity but it is a very slow process. After a brush with death my relative finally agreed to the finance and property LPA after years of saying 'I'm not old enough, don't need it'. We ticked the with immediate effect box - I have spent months sorting out the finance mess and the fallout from massive scamming which happened in 2022. Didn't push the health one because that decision was taken out of our hands when they were discharged to a care home (LA choice and truly hideous but now in a home of our choosing which is 1000% nicer and not just where you go to wait to die). Having the finance LPA meant I knew we could afford the fees at the nicer home, can move money so it gets the best interest and can sell the house to ensure there is money for as long as is needed. Here the LA will charge base rate plus 4% interest if they put a charge on the house.

Tell your father that LPA will ensure his needs are met in a way which is best for him. He can say if he would prefer care at home until such time it isn't practical. If he refuses the finance LPA see if he'll consider you becoming a trusted person on his account. You won't be able to see all the transactions (unless he let's you) but you'll at least be able to pay for his shopping etc. Good luck!

POA is useful for a lot more than choosing a care home.
For me it has meant that managing DPs decline
due to both having dementia and other physical issues may have cost me lots in time and lost employment opportunities, but at least we haven’t been out of pocket when paying for their groceries. It also meant I was able to move all their bills onto Direct Debit and organise a cleaner for them.
Its a lot of work though and if he’s likely to be a pain about it all and you’re able to hold your boundaries, then you can just leave it as it is but tell him the implications.

Trouble is that when a crisis comes and it inevitably does, it’s very hard to walk away and leave social services to sort it.

If he won’t agree to a LPA , if there is a stage when he has lost capacity you apply for deputyship under court of protection we had to do this with my dad after he developed dementia as he would not agree to LPA while he still had capacity. Until such time as long as he accepts the consequences that you cannot step in to make decisions on his behalf if something happens

He will be absolutely fine without POA - its you that will have the grief of going to the office of the public Guardian which costs thousands and takes months!
So selfish not to get your affairs in order as much as possible to help the people that you expect to care for you.

The financial one is essential, the health and welfare one we didn’t find as useful, medics opinion seems to override any relatives opinions/wishes but you might as well do both while you’re at it, if he can be talked round.

@user7538796538
it didn’t cost us a huge amount as we didn’t use a solicitor but it is quite a lot of work and form filling, it’s currently under £500