I have no Power of attorney. How will this impact me and my dad. He can be very stubborn

[mumma24]

My dad is 85
lives alone, happy that way and not lonely.
he is very stubborn.
health not great, swollen red legs, breathless, can’t walk without his zimmer. Flat bound. Never goes out and doesn’t want to either.
Has no friends. Fell out with his only friend 10 weeks ago that used to visit daily. Doesn’t want to make up with him.
he owns his flat. Has some savings.
I visit every week and do his food shop.
after watching the Martin Lewis programme on the importance of having power of attorney I have spoken to him about this. He doesn’t think it’s necessary.
my question is what would happen if he lost capacity for example had a stroke or fall went to hospital or care home. How would I sell his flat to pay for his care or pay his bills etc.
Anyone managed ok without having POA?

How do you think it should have been done differently?

Everyone is very dramatic about LPA / POA.
Because it is a pain in the bum if someone becomes suddenly incapacitated.

However, the vast majority of them go straight in the bin, never enacted. Most people don't suddenly lose capacity.

So, it depends on your attitude to risk. For a very few, they are a massive relief, for most, they are a waste of money. No way of knowing which you will be!

You can apply for appointeeship from the dwp to manage his state benefits only.

I had LPA but of more practical day to day use was being added as joint account holder on my dad's account. That gave me the ability to set up online banking and my own debit card for the account which I could use to get him shopping and pay bills. Try that as a first step.

As others have said, you could try telling him the consequences of not having an LPA - that Social Services will take over his affairs, rather than you being able to do it on his behalf. That may prompt him to do it.

If he still refuses and he loses capacity, in your position I would not consider taking out a deputyship. A deputyship is far more onerous than an LPA, it takes a long time to set up and you have to account for every penny. So I would leave it all to Social Services.

As PP have said, it won't really affect you, you will not be required to do anything. It will just affect him and greatly limit his options.

My mother developed dementia, fortunately she had done an LPA a few years earlier so I could make choices for her. Without that, she would have depended on Social Services to make the decisions and her last years would almost certainly have been far less pleasant.

No, it's very rare for capacity to be suddenly and dramatically lost. But the other scenario is much more common. The creeping early stages of dementia, where a person starts making poor decisions. It's at that point that, if the Finance PoA is already filed, a gentle conversation an encourage an elderly person to activate it and allow themselves to be supported in financial decision making. Then someone has oversight of paying the bills, starting to do online shops, maybe starting to chat to their elderly person about getting a cleaner in, etc.

Without the PoA already filed, in this grey state, it becomes more challenging to get it signed, and then you're left hanging waiting for the big crisis when the person is found to no longer be competent to manage their own finances. By then, the deputy will be left sorting out a 💩-storm of debtors, cut off utilities, bailiffs actions, possibly small claims or CCJs.

I think he should have been sectioned after the first time he attacked a member of hospital staff. I think a psychiatrist should have been working with him to identify the sources of his extreme anxiety and the triggers for his fight or flight behaviours. I think SALT should have been working with him to develop alternative communication strategies, so he had a way of communicating his needs that didn't involve biting and headbutting people in panic. I think he should have had a referral to an Elderly People with Autism team (don't even know if this exists, but it's going to be necessary) to work with his complex needs as a neurodivergent elderly person with TBI also living with the effects of decades of self-medication.

If you can’t get your dad to organise POA at least ask him to put you on his bank account as a joint name so that you can pay bills etc when needed. Also allow you to speak on his behalf with the utility companies etc. makes it easier.

my dad had POA and I used it several times. One to organise benefits when he became less able to do things for himself. Also to have a say in care plans. It’s important as you need to know what he eats for the future so you can put things in place.

frustrating though that he is being negative.

How could any of this been instigated by social care?

@TFImBackIn I would suggest doing it yourself.
You just need to be methodical and careful.

There are 2 types of POA. One for finance, the other for health.
i did my mother’s myself because I’m confident filling in official forms. It cost at the time £84.

I'm also a trusted person on her bank account. We both went into the high street branch andI was signed up there and then. My mother is ancient but she is cognoscente and has capacity, however having LPA for her finances is massively helpful for some things.

Solicitors will charge a huge amount to fill the forms in. There’s nothing to it if you follow the guidance notes.

If a relative has estranged themselves and are currently in a care home with no poa or deputyship what happens if the care home fee exceeds what the property is worth? Social services have contacted us re deputyship but for lots of reasons it didnt feel appropriate, i am however next of kin.

You can’t do any of those things without POA

In practical terms you only need the financial POA, so that's saved a load of money. No need for a solicitor. Download the forms, fill them in following the instructions carefully, in your case your dad may have to swallow his pride and make up with his friend, so the friend can be the form provider. When it's all done and witnessed send it off with the money and a few months later the POA will arrive. With the financial one is best to tick the box for it to be able to be used immediately, that way his bank will deal with you and issue you a card on his account, so you can do his shopping.

Def don't need a solicitor

And you don't need to be "confident in filling in forms" fgs.

it's not brain surgery

At the risk of derailing the OP's thread, the discharge social worker should have pushed back after the first 10 homes rejected, that clearly the patient wasn't stable for discharge. Also I'd expect an Elderly Neurodivergency team to be embedded within ASC as most Autism care is within Social Care remit, not medical.

Apologies, that should read Elderly Neurodiversity

It’s not just finance you need: you also need health and care POA. If there were to be questions over medication etc if at some point he doesn’t have capacity, you need to be able to consent on his behalf. My dad experienced this during Covid when mum was too confused to consent to the vaccine. It was very difficult and only happened because she was cold and tired from standing in the queue for too long (with dementia) - she had understood and wanted the vaccine when they left home, but by the time they got to the front of the queue she had lost track of what was going on and when they asked for consent and whether she understood, it was clear she didn’t, so she couldn’t have it. It’s the sort of thing that creeps up on you. Much better to have it sorted in advance before you need it - you might never need to use it, but it makes a huge difference to have it ready.

Agree, the dementia situation is far more common than sudden loss of capacity.

When cognitive decline symptoms are noticed, it's definitely wise to do a financial LPA, or simply adding the responsible person to the bank account is often sufficient.

Agree a solicitor isn't essential but the step people typically fall down on is the signatures, getting them done in the right order and witnessed correctly.

I disagree with the 'everyone must have one' sentiment that's pushed because not all older people want to give up their financial and health decisions to their children.

@Chewbecca But everyone should have an idea of who they would want to make decisions on their behalf if they are unable to. This doesn't necessarily have to be children, but should be someone. The alternative is that the decision making will be taken away and given to someone else without your consent (which you're unable to give). Depending on the nature of the loss of capacity, you might be very aware of this happening, but unable to express your opinion clearly.

Personally, I've dealt with both Deputyship and PoA. I can honestly say that the PoA route is far kinder. Before they became ill enough to lose capacity, I was able to chat to my PoA donor, establish and document exactly what her wishes were, understand her feelings about medical treatment (I held both types of PoA). So when she did finally lose capacity, I could advocate for her with her medical team, deal with the financials of her move to care so that happened seamlessly, make sure her home help was paid before she had to move, etc.

Compare that to deputyship, which has been a battle from the start. The application is still ongoing, so the elderly person has very limited access to money, debts are piling up which we can't pay because noone can access her accounts. This relative desperately wants to sell their house, but can't because they don't have capacity to contract an estate agent and noone can do it for them. The application process is extremely intrusive, asks for detailed information about finances, wills, executors, etc. It's created a hostile situation as the elderly person is deeply opposed to control being taken "against their will" but are unable to make decisions. They are just angry, which has triggered a deterioration in their cognitive state, so it's a horrible vicious circle.

I'd far rather have been able to have the kind, constructive conversations that the PoA enabled.....

You need to get the LPA in place whilst he still has the capacity to agree to it. Explain to him the benefits of having this in place in the event that he is no longer able to make decisions for himself. Once he no longer has capacity you cannot get a LPA and will have to apply to the Court of Protection which will be an expensive and protracted process and not really what you want to be doing when you could just be focusing on your dad’s wellbeing if the LPA is already in place.

@roundaboutthehillsareshining

I do agree with every word you say (& am sorry you have had to deal with such difficulties).

But OP doesn't mention any cognitive decline in her DF and he doesn't want to have an LPA. She asks if there will be any problem as a result. There might, but there very well may not be any resulting problems.

It's only the, I guess, definitive-ness of the responses I object to, implying issues will happen to everyone who hasn't arranged an LPA.

@Chewbecca I think for me I see PoA as an insurance. It might not be needed, and if it isn't, it'll just sit in a drawer and can be shredded when the person's estate is being dealt with after their death. However, if it is needed, it is there and can be registered. Assuming the advance admin has been done - talking to the PoA about their wishes, it's not a particularly onerous process. However the alternative is that if capacity is lost, control will fall by default to the state until the legal processes are concluded. There's no alternative option.

So I'd encourage anyone in OP's relative's position to file the PoA in advance, then file it away and hope it's never needed....

You don't need to take out a deputyship. Social Services will ask you to as the nearest relative, but it's your choice.

If you refuse, Social Services will appoint someone to undertake the deputyship. You are not obliged to do anything.