Blood test nurse with NO appointment got firemen to damage door.Who pays?

[logiccalls]

Someone who goes decades without any G.P. contact (being allergic to chemicals, and therefore never wanting to get pills) decided to get a private health MOT: The results were excellent, except for one which indicated it might be advisable to take a further blood test via the N.H.S.

The person was permanently disabled by a violent and stalking ex, therefore finds it difficult to get to a surgery, and asked them to send a home visiting nurse to do a blood test. This is a person made resilient by adversity, and keeping as healthy as possible, so with no history of mental problems or heart problems or anything else. (And even the requested blood test was resulting from a private MOT, which the NHS knew nothing about)

The GP has never been spoken to, just the receptionist, who promised to pass on the request for the blood test .

There was no further contact: NO appointment: No response: No email: No phone contact: No letter: No text.

Many weeks later, suddenly, a stranger had got into the block of flats, without using the intercom, and was agressively hammering on the flat door and trying to force the door handle to turn.

There was still no phone call, email or text. It could have been any intruder, inebriated, deranged or drugged. The occupant stayed silent.

The mobile phone rang, but with a witheld number, (which someone who has previously been stalked would of course never respond to.) Eventually, the stranger at the door went away. (There had been a parcel outside the door, before the stranger arrived, and as soon as she left, the occupant could at last open the door to retrieve it, and did so.)

An hour (?) later, a man was beating on the door as if to smash it in, and shouting. The occupant is deaf, but was obviously not going to open the door, to violent strangers, so again stayed silent. (But, because the parcel had been taken in, was clearly not lying unconscious on the floor for lack of a routine blood test, for which there had been NO appointment.)

The hammering on the door continued for hours, (?) and although the phone was constantly being rung, it was never used to send a text explaining there was any legitimate reason to attempt entry.

Later, it turned out the nurse had called the fire brigade, and it was their men taking over from her in battering the door. They then began to drill holes in the door.

The occupant had been unable to use the phone to try to get a lawyer, or to ring for any possible help from neighbours or the building caretaker. The 'number -witheld' calls were coming constantly.

With the flat's front door being destroyed, there was at last no choice for the occupant except to go to the door and call out "Who are you and what are you doing?"

A fireman explained who he was, and that there was a blood test nurse who had claimed that the occupant had "failed to attend an appointment for a blood test", which apparently he believed was justification for smashing the door. (?!)

a)There was NO such 'appointment'. b)The occupant had no idea who the nurse was, or the fireman was. c)Nobody texted.

But could it ever be reasonable to smash the door of someone for such a minor reason, for someone with no medical or mental illness history, and with evidence the person has taken in a parcel, so is obviously fit and well?

This is bullying and abuse of power, instigated by that extremely aggressive nurse, and enabled too readily by a fire brigade who were colluding in the constant phoning, yet never requesting a text should be sent, to a deaf occupant, to identify themselves or the blood test nurse, or to give information about the alleged "appointment".

(The medical records will not show much contact with the NHS, for decades, but there would be a note about deafness, so the fireman's statement that he had called out the word 'fireman' would not be justification to destroy a door.)

There is no house insurance. The front door is a security door and a fire door, so will be expensive to replace. Large holes have been drilled through it. Is it true, as the fireman suggested, that the NHS surgery will be liable to replace the front door?

In a high rise there will be 100s of residents. I can’t believe it’s so abnormal for people to bypass the entry system that you think it must be an addict rather than the nurse you requested or a friend or basically anyone. She could have been on a visit in another flat. Especially given that you are very, very, non urgent it was likely to have been tagged into someone nearby.

My trust gives you a hoody if you have to work outdoors. If seen district nurses around the streets in hoodies with logos on. Through a peephole they would look like a tracksuit. The days of starched caps and capes are long gone.

OP - why didn’t you shout through the door? Either “who are you?” Or “go away, I’m phoning the police”.

Why didn’t you phone the police?

they obviously thought you were dead or dying

if you had shouted out you would have disabused them of that notion

I don't believe the story now after the peephole and black tracksuits part. And I say this as someone who nearly killed by an ex
Btw if I think my ex is hammering my door down I would call 999.
And because of my history my number and address are both flagged in the system, if I fail to answer the door or any of the calls, I would expect them to break the lock to get inside and check

You are right though,there is the equivalent of a ring doorbell. It is out on the street to stop strangers gettinto into the building, unless a resident sees and speaks to them on camera, then presses the button to admit them into the entrance hall.

I'm sorry but I can't help but ask if you are intent on winding us all up! That's how it's coming over. Pretending not to understand.

Are you saying you don't know that YOU can install a ring doorbell?

We all know about the intercom. You've repeated that several times.

Do you simply not understand about the camera doorbell you attach to the door of your flat? Have you never seen them?

I'm truly baffled.
You are terrified of opening your door yet you have no door chain and no camera doorbell on your door.

I hope you get the help you need because this is not really about the blood test.

All the best OP.

…….. (Who could in any case have been out of the building, if a friend had taken her out, even into the grounds, or for a drive.) ……

So how come you (or the person) couldn’t have the friend take you to the surgery/clinic/hospital for the blood test ? You no doubt got them to take you for the original private health check which you could afford to pay for.

The whole point of a home visit is for people who are totally unable to leave their home who couldn’t go out even if a friend was available to help take them out, or into the grounds or for a drive. The very sick. elderly or disabled. Therefore it is assumed that you would be inside your home. That is the basis on which a hime visit was booked.
Your whole argument about ‘no appointment’ falls flat I'm afraid OP. Why would you need one? You would always be at home, waiting.

You (or the person) brought it all on themselves by being very stubborn and wanting it both ways. Furthermore, you (or the person) wasted NHS and Fire Service resources (paid for by the tax payer).
i think it is incumbent on you (or the person) to get your door fixed up pronto if there is such a high risk of assailants wandering the corridors looking for somebody to harm.
It is entitled nonsense, in my opinion, to think somebody else should pay for your foolishness.

I mean, it takes a millisecond to reject a call, then start dialling another number.

The OP said they use text anyway, you can definitely text while the phone is ringing (or reject the call).

If they had rejected the call the nurse would have realised they were OK, because the call would have cut her end and the ringing out she could presumably hear would have stopped. Had that happened a couple of times I think she would have realised.

Snowqueen you have been thoughtful in your replies, thank you. You noticed the one about the new door costing £2,500.,and not being insured, despite the belligerent insistence of other posters that it must be insured.

There is of course a door chain, but the fully locked security door can withstand a determined bashing, which a cuple of screws on a doorchain cannot. A potential intruder will not politely stand away from a door which has been opened on a chain, in order to permit it to be closed again.

There is a "doorbell camera". It is the intercom. It is intended to stop anyone getting into the building: What potential visitors need to do is stand at the building entrance, where they are in full view of cctv, then press the flat number, on the intercom panel. Then, the flat occupant is in control and has the choice. Nobody will answer at all, if s/he is out! But nobody can be forced to answer, if s/he does not expect or welcome a visitor, or does not recognise or trust the person standing there.

In that case, the resident will not answer the intercom at all, or else will answer, and if necessary, will explain it is not a convenient time and request the person to leave. That is an extremely safe way to deal with people at the door. It means, too, that the strangers cannot stand outside the flat and hear the occupants, so the occupants won't need to hide silently in their kitchens, hoping to be assumed to be away from home, while their door is being attacked by someone unwelcome/unknown.

If the residents wish to speak with the visitors, they can do so via the intercom, while the visitor is still outside the building: That is far safer than having to deal with one right at the flat door. Especially as, very often, there are no nearby neighbours at home, during the day.

Phoning the g.p. was attempted. The receptionist answered and said she would pass a message to the GP via email. The hoped-for result would have been to speak on the phone, eventually, with the GP, to discuss which if any) blood tests would be advisable. You mention internet consultation, which sounds sensible, but in this case just any ordinary phone call would suffice, as it needed only a verbal discussion. The phone records show there were NO phone calls from any surgery number,nor from any witheld number. The email records show there were no emails from the surgery.

The receptionist had said there was a note about home visits, and seemed to think that could be done. But surely, whatever and wherever the test was to be, making any 'appointment' was impossible without prior discussion with a patient?

The receptionist certainly did not make "an appointment", then and there. Nor did she suggest any time frame. Weeks, months, years? News reports are about amazing delays, including for known cancer patients. It was not necessarily unreasonable to just patiently and passively wait to hear some further communication from the surgery.

And there was NO further communication. No email. No phone call. No text. No letter. No appointment made means no appointment which the patient had "failed to attend". Nobody can be accused of "failing to attend" something they know nothing about, can they?

The receptionist's mention of a 'home visit' being on notes is causing a lot of online abuse, but MedExpert and another poster explained that people can go 23 years without seeing a GP, and that notes may be wrong, or out of date, or may have been written in a different situation. Or when different rules or systems applied.

Not everyone can comprehend living in anything but their own, private houses: Suggesting adding personal door cameras is not relevant for leaseholders. The terms of the lease ban anything being done to tamper with the uniform appearance of the building. No installation of anything in the communal corridors. No tampering with the electricity supply to extend wires through fire-safe walls or doorframes. Presumably the cameras themselves would be plastic, which would melt in a fire and produce fumes, or which could malfunction and themselves be the cause of a fire? Whatever the case, they would not be acceptable (or legal?) in a communal area.

Many of the flats are rented, and in that case have standard private tenancy terms, banning even a doormat. Presumably this is both for aforementioned uniformity of appearance, and for fire regulations (the approved floorcovering will be to a fire-proof standard, but a random collection of personal mats won't be). But also, fire regulations would want no potential obstruction or hazard, and a mat could trip people. So, no, wiring up personal cameras in communal areas will certainly not be permitted.

And, I have explained in a detailed response to your other post, for which I thank you, that yes, of course there is a door chain, and no, a couple of screws on a door chain is NOT every bit as strong as a closed door, with the modern full length locking methods. And no, someone who is attempting forced entry will not meekly step away, permitting a door to be closed again, after it has been opened on the chain.

(It would be a public service to warn people never to depend on a doorchain a) to keep out intruders or b) to stop intruders grabbing them, stabbing them, or preventing them shutting the door)

A smartphone does not operate in the same way as a dumbphone. Many people for many reasons use the old fashioned phones, and they are somewhat laborious to type with, and will not accept what you correctly describe as "millisecond" operations or multifunctionality: The smartphone permits many things to happen at the same time, but the dumbphone will allow the screen to be open for a single function only, and an incoming call disrupts it. The phone needs to be closed down after each action. Opened, a list of contacts can be searched, then a text or call could be chosen to a selected number, but if the search, or the text, is at any point broken into, by a call, it will break the process. Of course, all the critical posts do assume an ideal person, just like themselves, who iiis entirely unruffled and unafraid even when there is every indication some stranger is battering their door with what can only be bad intentions, since they are uninvited and plainly unwelcome.

If you look a couple of posts above yours, you will see that a nurse says her clothing would indeed look like someone in a black tracksuit. Perhaps you believe her, even if you don't believe anyone else?
You are in a special d.v. system to get remarkable priority, and you know that the police will be obliged to instantly respond if you call them; Not everyone is in that position: Local and national news frequently reports of people in desperate situations, getting no response at all from the police.

so the surgery has confirmed that the tracksuit clad individual was one of their staff who'd attempted to visit for the purpose of taking a blood sample from a housebound patient who'd recently left their home for a private blood test?

So you can hear the intercom but you can’t hear the firemen announcing their presence?

Presumably the cameras themselves would be plastic, which would melt in a fire and produce fumes, or which could malfunction and themselves be the cause of a fire? Whatever the case, they would not be acceptable (or legal?) in a communal area

Seriously? I rent and so do all my neighbours. A number of us have Ring doorbells. You do know you can get battery Ring doorbells?? No wiring, no drilling.

I’m struggling with your whole story quite frankly.

@logiccalls your posts are highly indicative of someone who is struggling with their mental health. It sounds like you’ve managed this by making your world smaller and more limited to cope with that rather than seek and receive help for it. That’s why you’re at odds with so many people on here. Your logic pattern doesn’t follow theirs and yours seems so outlandish to most people. You’re feeling like you have so defend your position because the alternative to your beliefs feels so scary.

in answer to your initial question, according to Chat GPT you are liable. Everyone from the nurse to the fire brigade acted reasonably within their job roles in a situation where they believed you to be in danger. Whether you agree with that or not, that’s the situation.

You don't seem to understand a doorbell camera.
No wiring, small, unobtrusive, allowed. It's the size of a small doorbell.

By the way another poster here is insistent that your landlord will be insured for repairing the door.

Also- did you have your blood taken by the nurse?

How did this debacle end?

Oh sorry, yes if you have a landlord they’re culpable for the cost

I do get your point

However in this case, how can you expect the DN and the fire department to know that you're not responding due to your very special situation! The different parts of your story don't add up together.

Ps. It makes 0 sense that someone did nothing for hours just stayed inside waiting people to break the door down. Didn't respond to anything, didn't call the police. And you cannot accuse that police don't respond without contacting them, can you?

I have never seen a nurse in black tracksuit.
They are usually in trousers and a top similar to scrubs in colours like navy blue or maroon.

I wouldn’t say that “the person” did nothing they stood behind the door that had been drilled through by fire service, while the big red key was being used as a battering ram, while silently observing the people trying to breakdown the doors clothing through a hole made by a drill?…🤨

Seems you have a lot of mental issues, maybe PTSD from your stalker? I think you need to seek help and support somewhere

If you look a couple of posts above yours, you will see that a nurse says her clothing would indeed look like someone in a black tracksuit. Perhaps you believe her, even if you don't believe anyone else?

I said that. Doesn’t explain why you didn’t answer the door. You seem to be saying you don’t answer the door to people in tracksuits. Why? It’s December, why would she just be in scrubs or a tunic outdoors? Why didn’t you shout through the door?

did you ring the police though? Whilst under 'attack'? Or just your solicitor? So much of this is absolute tosh and designed to cause drama and make yourself out to be persecuted.

Really you should have booked a cab (which you can) and get yourself to a gp (which you can) for a non emergency blood test that probably wasn't even needed.

What a waster of everyone's time. Taxpayers are paying for this.

To get back to the original question, does it matter if the fire brigade or the GP practice is responsible (and I don’t believe either of them are)? Ultimately it’ll be the taxpayer that foots the bill in either case. I’m going to assume you’re not a taxpayer otherwise you’d be outraged at the thought of expecting the taxpayer to pay for damage to a door you refused to open and refused to insure. Just as you don’t care about the cost up the taxpayer for a home visit that was not necessary and not even utilized. Why not go the whole hog and get legal aid to fight your claim? After all, it’s only taxpayer money and who cares if that means funds have to be taken from something else. As long as you get your new front door, right?

I don’t believe a word of it. “Allergic to chemicals” but took in a package that had been sitting out in the hall exposed to everything, had a nurse come to the house to take some blood and the nurse would have been covered in chemicals from the detergent on her clothing, to the cosmetics on her skin, the soap used to wash her hands, the antiseptic swab needed to sterilize the site of the blood draw. Maybe go back to the private place that is obviously chemical-free (otherwise you would never have gone there in the first place) and relieve the taxpayer.

Fearing for your life but calling a solicitor (and not the police) when someone is hammering on the door? The solicitor could have been on the phone with some other person, out of the office in court or on annual leave, at lunch break, have clients in the office for an appointment, be off sick, on the toilet, at a medical appointment, etc. And if by some chance the solicitor was able to take the call, what exactly could she or he do right there in the moment? The door would have been forced open before the solicitor had even started their car engine.

It’s obvious you’re just a compensation chaser. Better make sure the ink on the cheque you are hoping for is chemical-free. We wouldn’t want another claim to have to be made, would we?

I hear what you're saying about "not being allowed' to install a Ring doorbell on your personal door but if look into it again or talk to someone in authority about it. I believe there are options that are battery operated rather than requiring a full rewiring (because who on earth would do that!?) and can be placed temporarily - especially if it would be considered a reasonable adjustment for someone with a disability.

But regardless, you're adamant that this person "sneaked in". Has it occurred to you that she could have been seeing someone else in the building before you and used the intercom to make contact with them then came to your door? Do you really expect her to go all the way back outside to use the intercom again in case the next patient decides to hide in their kitchen instead of greeting them? There are many ways she could have got in. Only one of them is "sneaking".

Oh so the nurse came to the door and IMMEDIATELY started trying to force the door open?

There was no point at which you could have gone to the door before she started doing that and said 'can you show your ID to the spy hole please'...

You've created a situation and you're now seeing the outcome of that situation - in effect 'FAFO'.

Get a better spy hole! Get it put on your notes that due to your significant mental and physical health issues you need nurses etc to text to say they're outside and show ID to the spy hole.

There are ways around pretty much every obstacle you've chucked up here, but I don't really think you want them, you want everything to be someone elses fault.

The bottom line is, its not always someone elses fault, you could help yourself and it is you who will suffer as a result if you do not.