Gifting money to myself and siblings with a deputyship order

[Notright77]

I am a deputy for my Fathers estate. Unfortunately he is now in care for life. He is very happy and settled in a wonderful, private care home. We are selling his house and using the funds to pay for his care. However, he only needs a certain amount to secure his care in the home for life. He will have more than enough money to live on, for the rest of his life, with pensions and other savings. Once the house is sold there would effectively be around £70k left which should technically go straight into his bank but I think it’s a shame me and my siblings can’t have it. It won’t make any difference at all to him and will just go on more care home fees. Has anyone been in the situation and had the money? I know there are strict rules around deputyship but I know he would rather we had the money than it go towards more care home fees.

Are you for real? No. You cannot just take his money. Because that would make you a thief of your elderly father's money.

If you do this, you're risking jail. You can't give away his money, nor can you take any of it for yourself.
All the money must go into his bank account or to pay for his bills/care home fees.
You and your siblings will get whatever % of his remaining money after he dies that was left to you in his will, nothing else.

Absolutely not. This is totally immoral. Unless he has capacity and decides to gift you the money it’s not yours to touch (and if he did you may be subject to inheritance tax if he dies within seven years and his estate is large enough).
You also don’t know his needs going forward. He may have enough if things remain as things are now, but what if he needs increased care? Specialist medical care? You say the cash may be used for his fees, so deprivation of assets comes into play here. And are you privy to his will? Perhaps he has decided the money will go elsewhere when the time comes.

I've been reading the rules around deputyship this week - even small gifts are not permitted without prior agreement of the court because the person who the money belongs to no longer has the capacity to decide if they want to give a gift. You have to account for every penny! You should speak to your court appointed supervisor about your responsibilities....

Having acted as Deputy for my stepfather, I know this would absolutely be forbidden and you could likely end up in court. You have to account for every single penny spent with bank statements to prove it. I got pulled up over a ‘missing’ £100 that I couldn’t account for, then realised it was reimbursing me for a payment to his care home into his own ‘account’ for personal spending before the Deputyship had been approved. £70K missing from his accounts will have massive alarm bells ringing and you’re certain to be removed as Deputy.

You really are on thin ice acting as deputy without understanding the implications! You are in a very vulnerable position. I hope you have accounted and can evidence every penny!

You say if you and your siblings don't have the £70K, it will just go on care home fees. I'm a bit confused because in the previous sentence you've said that your father has enough savings for his care. So which is it? If you are going to spend money that would otherwise be used to fund his care and he then has to rely on Council Adult Social Services to pay for his care, then the Council will come after you personally as his Deputy. The Council will determine that you as a Deputy on his behalf deliberately impoverished his estate to avoid paying care costs and they will seek financial address. Of course, as a Deputy (if you are undertaking your role correctly in line with OPG guidance) you will have taken out liability insurance to cover acting in ignorance but it won't cover breaking the law with intent. You are aware that you have to submit an annual OPG report with financial information, statements etc. The annual OPG report is very onerous, it won't let you close the report until you have accounted for every penny. All financial statements have to be uploaded with it and it is rigorously checked. As as a deputy I use to do mine personally and it woudl take me the better part of a week to submit. Most deputy's get an accountant to do it for them. You have to account for every financial movement, every bit of income, every bit of expenditure, statements, invoices, etc.

Please read what I have written. This particular (amazing) care home system works in that, once he has covered 2 years fees then he will be in the home for life. There are only 2 options for the surplus money- it can go to the care home (but won’t make any difference at all to how long he can stay there) or it cab go to us!!!! Of course we wouldn’t take the money under any other circumstances!!!

The care home he is in has a promise in which, if he pays 2 years fees then he stays there for life. I have friends who parents who have been there for 20 odd years and I also know someone in the finance team. When I talk about savings and pension, they are seperate to the money for the house and are more than enough to pay for anything he could possibly want for as long as he lives. Basically, the money I refer to will just be taken by the care home (but will make absolutely no difference to what care he receives or his room or anything) or we could have it. I wouldn’t in a million years do anything that would affect his financial security obviously.

Your update makes no sense. If the care home fees are fixed for the remainder of his life after two years, why would that 'surplus' £70k end of going on care home fees?

Regardless, the answer is No. You cannot steal your father's money. HTH.

(i) After 2 years, will the care home apply to adult social serviceson your Father's behalf to close the funding gap or will the care home absorb the entire cost gap. If they apply to adult social services then the Council they will come after you for deprivation of assets.
(ii) I'm not sure what the law says about a deputy behaving in this way. They don't have the power say of a trustee of a discretionary trust in making appointments. I'm not clear on what the rules are for gifts of this size and nature under a deputyship. I would doubly make sure. .... which is clearly what you endeavoring to do. I would take legal advice.

I’m not on thin ice as I wouldn’t do anything illegal or immoral. I, not only can account for absolutely every Penny but have personally used thousands of pounds of my own money as my Dad hasn’t had access to his funds for 12 months. I’m putting the feelers out but will take legal advice. This money will go straight to care home so was wondering if we could have it instead. It won’t affect his care at all.

Yes, I was pretty sure it wouldn’t be allowed due to the deprivation of funds. Whenever we talked about inheritance, me and my siblings said we’d be disappointed if he didn’t spend every last penny on himself but it just seems a shame when it will just go into care home fees when he will have already covered the required amount to stay there for life.

This is theft. It would like result in prison time. I can’t see how you think this could be justified?

Is anyone else hoping that this elderly man cops off with one of the carers and marries her, leaving all his money to her?

@Notright77 it will make a difference because the money for his care fees once his savings are used up come from the council so is tax payers money.
You are trying to justify stealing your father's money and mine along with every other tax payer who will have to fund his care because you stole his money.
You will be caught either when you fill the accounts with the crt or when you apply for funding for your father's care as a full audit will be done, are you really willing to go to jail for a few thousand pounds?

Maybe I can’t explain it to you so google it. Basically, once he meets two years fees in this private home, social services will take over the payments. His prognosis is that he will be in care for life. He meets the criteria to stay in this (incredible) nursing home that he always loved as it’s on the road him and all his friends live on and is like a five star hotel. The 70k is surplus to the requirements that the home needs in the bank to secure his future there. The way I see it is, a billion pound company get the money or we do. It doesn’t affect my Dads finances or security in the slightest and I know full well exactly what he would want me to try and do.

Of course the care will keep him after two years - they’ll want their fees though. So who will pay them - your father’s assets have to. Who else were you thinking would pay the fees?

This is what I thought. I guess I was looking for a loophole

A lifetime trust is no good. Your father must stay alive for 2 years preferably 7 and there will be a charge of 20% of the settlor gift to get the money into a trust in the first place.

Social services will pay a reduced fee and why not? The 70 k would pay the private company for another year - then social services will take over. It won’t make a difference in any way to my Dad

Why will social care pay for him in two years? If he’s met the criteria for CHC already they’ll pay that now. If he hasn’t, why are you so sure he’ll meet it in two years time?

Thanks- I have considered the 7 year situation. I was more wondering whether we could have the money instead of the care home

Yes it would - but let’s be sensible and take the situation into consideration.