Private/Wills

[PinkOtter]

Hello happy new year everyone!

my mother passed away in 2021, my sister did the probate as no will and at the time I didn’t question it. My mother left her house valued at £130,000.

I got a call when completed from her stating “mum had unexpected debts we didn’t know about so there’s £1000 each left” I just accepted that and left it at that.

a few months ago I requested the certificate, and it stated there was no debts at all, the house was sold to my sisters daughter, and recently learnt from extended family that some got a good chunk of that money, so I’m thinking to speak to a solicitor shortly to see where I stand

is this Will fraud? I was in no way estranged from my mother, and no reason I should’ve been left out of her estate.

The funeral was paid for by a different niece and she wanted the money back when the estate came through- that’s all I know!

This should have been shown as an estate debt and therefore gross and net figures would not be the same. Banks will pay funeral expenses from the deceased’s account/s without a grant of probate you just need an invoice from the funeral director. The fact that the niece paid suggests that the estate accounts were perhaps a little muddled from the start.

Defrauding an estate is a criminal offence that attracts a custodial sentence. I wish I could say I'd instruct a solicitor, but the reality is that legal fees will probably end up swallowing the lot but more besides. I would give them a final warning and say if they don't come clean you're going to the police.

And then I would go to the police.

@Ladybyrd 100% this. It’s a criminal offence.

Either you sit back, and do nothing so as to maintain a relationship - although tbh I wouldn't even be able to look at her again - or you act.

I would still go with messaging her an ambiguous message to see if she tries to explain herself. Then solicitor to write a letter - shouldn’t cost too much, to the PP point about legal fees racking up.

Then police.

Don’t let her get away with tarnishing your mums memory with her lies and deceit.

I'll give you full transparency. I worked in private for years and saw many cases where beneficiaries frittered through entire estates arguing about memento teaspoons from the Niagara Falls, and cats.

When someone does something like this to you, it's the ultimate betrayal. This is not a relationship that can be salvaged anymore.

By all means, I would get a solicitor to write a letter to out the wind up them, in the sternest possible terms. But I wouldn't get into civil litigation. I really would go to the police. Your sister is an asshole. And time isn't a factor.

*probate for years

Wrong John Craven, the estate could have sold the property and repaid the mortgage on sale. They would have had to use a solicitor for the sale, but sister could have said she was only child.
People should not try to advise when they do not know stuff. Mortgage co would have only sold property after taking possession in the absence of heirs or breach of contract, such as no one paid the mortgage. They would have needed a court order to do so

Sister is an 'arsehole'.

An ass is a term for a donkey !

You sound like the snooty old bat down at Tescos that corrects workers on their pronunciation while trying to negotiate a five pence reduction on a 15p packet of rolls.

You could look at how much the house sold for ?

House sold for the exact amount on the probate certificate

What info is on the probate certificate, she must have incurred costs, solicitors fees, utility bills, house sale costs, funeral and notification costs, letters of administration costs, any outstanding tax, benefits, pension, vat.. You need to see a full set of accounts.

For clarity, if she has sold the house for significantly less than its market value, she is personally liable to you for half the difference in value (that being the amount that would have been added to your inheritance - the other half would have added to her inheritance). She is also liable to you if she has given money to other people that should have come to you under the rules of intestacy.

There can be a difference between the net value of an estate on the probate certificate and the actual value. There may be debts that were not known about at the time, and the costs of administering the estate are unlikely to be known. However, the estate accounts should show exactly what assets were available (the house, bank accounts, etc.), what expenses were incurred and how the estate was distributed. If your sister will not provide estate accounts, that rings huge alarm bells.

@PinkOtter I know it’s a bit further down the line but it’s fairly straightforward to request a summons for the estate accounts.

The first step is to see a solicitor who will write to your sister requesting a copy of the accounts, query the market value of the property and advise her of your entitlement under the laws of intestacy.

Your sister’s response will determine the next steps.

Waitrose. And the staff need not be corrected. And they have a sense of humour. 😉

... unless you're American. Mumsnet is not exclusive to the UK.

I would go to the police too

A grant has very little financial info on it: gross and net value of the estate. The remaining details confirm who is authorised to administer the estate and the name, address and date of death of the deceased. All the financial details are in the estate accounts.

Op I really think you needed to ask these questions whilst your sister was sorting out your mother’s estate. She’s likely to say now that she hasn’t prepared estate accounts or kept any of the documents relating to supposed debts. A Solicitor will just likely write to her to ask to see estate accounts and any records and maybe ask where the valuation of the house came from. But saying this, I would ask her for these details and the debts and the house sale, if she refuses, tell her you will be seeking legal advice.

She’s likely to say now that she hasn’t prepared estate accounts

If she hasn't, she has not yet finished her duties as executor. She must prepare accounts and provide copies to the beneficiaries. Also, HMRC can ask to see the estate accounts and certain other records for up to 20 years. If she has not prepared accounts and has disposed of the records that would allow her to do so, she is seriously in breach of her duties as executor.

I sent a message asking to see the accounts of the estate and asking her to clear up where the money went and so far have been ignored, but the message has been seen
i think next step will be to contact a solicitor to write and ask for the accounts of the estate?

Was that a recent message you sent her?

If she's read, she's clearly ignoring (and maybe panicking - good).

And yes, I would now 100% follow up with a solicitor letter. An initial letter shouldn't cost too much, and maybe enough to make her realise you are serious.

If she is not responding to you or fobbing you off then yes, your next step is to see a solicitor. If she has sold the house to her daughter for less than its true value and given money from the estate to relatives who were not entitled to receive anything, this is going to be expensive for her.

@PinkOtter dont contact your sister any more. just go straight to a solicitor and get this sorted out legally. I would not have even asked for a copy of the accounts after this long. I would have gone straight to legal steps!