Private/Wills

[PinkOtter]

Hello happy new year everyone!

my mother passed away in 2021, my sister did the probate as no will and at the time I didn’t question it. My mother left her house valued at £130,000.

I got a call when completed from her stating “mum had unexpected debts we didn’t know about so there’s £1000 each left” I just accepted that and left it at that.

a few months ago I requested the certificate, and it stated there was no debts at all, the house was sold to my sisters daughter, and recently learnt from extended family that some got a good chunk of that money, so I’m thinking to speak to a solicitor shortly to see where I stand

is this Will fraud? I was in no way estranged from my mother, and no reason I should’ve been left out of her estate.

Because there may be a scenario where she hasn't done anything fraudulent. I agree it looks unlikely but it's worth checking

Not married

You might try asking casually for more details about the "unexpected debts we didn’t know about". Perhaps worth doing this before going to the solicitor as it could be significant information.

But if the house sold at under value, that's not a good start. It might also be a stamp duty fraud.

I wouldn't forewarn your sister in any way. I would take legal advice first and ensure the initial letter comes from your lawyer. You should pay for this, at this stage. I would want to make it clear this will end up in court and you will leave no stone unturned, in the hope that she would pay you what you're owed without the need for full legal action.

I think perhaps you should ask MN to move this thread to Legal Matters, you might find a solicitor with real experience of this.

But the main response will still be that you need to see a solicitor. You can get a free 30 minute consultation but it will be more fruitful the more tangible evidence you can build up before going.

Unexpected debts could be something like a lifetime mortgage on the home. But even then, highly unlikely that there would only be a couple of thousand left. And if there was a lifetime mortgage,highly unlikely that the neice would have bought it. The mortgage Co would have put it on the open market.

I second asking Mumsnet to move this to Legal Matters where there are experienced solicitors posting. You might get a better response as to what your first move should be

Definitely no lifetime mortgage!

going to speak to a solicitor tomorrow

Good call OP.

You're right to tread carefully here. If she's defrauded you of your inheritance, you will need to take legal action and that will be your relationship over. If there's something you're not aware of and you falsely accuse her (which granted doesn't seem likely, but you never know) that will also end your relationship. Don't rush into anything.

I have only skimmed through this thread, so apologies if I am repeating things others have said.

If your mother was not married or in a civil partnership with her long-term partner, he was not entitled to inherit anything under the rules of intestacy. He would have needed to make an Inheritance Act claim if he wanted anything.

On the information you have given, it sounds like the estate should have been divided equally between you and your sister. The wider family were not entitled to anything unless your mother was in debt to them.

As a residual beneficiary, you are entitled to a copy of the estate accounts. Your sister, as executor, must provide you with a copy.

If the house was sold to your niece for significantly less than its market value, that is an issue and means your sister has failed to fulfil her duties as executor.

It is impossible to be certain, but it certainly sounds like your sister has defrauded you.

So sorry OP, does sister have form
for this kind of behaviour?

I downloaded the probate myself to see it, all I can see is the amount? Is there other documents I can request and from where?
thank you

The probate certificates shows the gross and net amounts, but there could be other debts and expenses not known at time of probate application. My dm dies last year and I was the executor. The net amount on the probate certificate is not the same as the sum to,be distributed to beneficiaries as the costs associated the the sale of my DM’s property need to be accounted for eg estate agent and solicitor ie the sum is lower. Additionally I had to complete my DM’s tax return and there was tax due so this is also another expense affecting the net figure. However, as the executor I have prepared the estate accounts which details all income received and expenses with receipts. All costs are accounted for.
Did your sister provide you with a copy of the estate accounts?
if not, ask for a copy. This is the first step imo and should you seek legal advice then the solicitor will ask for this.
Estate accounts do,not have to be officially registered so you will need to ask your sister for them.

Apologies for all the dreadful typos in my message.

Following with interest, sounds very much on the information you have given your sister has committed fraud.

If your Solicitor suspects this I am sure they have a duty to report to the Police.

What a mess

@PinkOtter the other document you may find useful is a copy of the Land Register. This will show how much the property was sold for.https://www.gov.uk/search-property-information-land-registry

The other thing I would do is use Rightmove to find the price of neighbouring properties. It’s not perfect but gives you a rough idea.

Then see a solicitor.

How do we know it was intestate. Maybe the sister forged a Will. Or If you give the sister a heads-up, she might forge one now. I bet they knew this time could come and have plans. I would do your research and not pre-warn the sister.

The probate shows the exact same amount gross/net with just her name on it, she never told me anything that was happening ignored my calls etc
i haven’t seen a copy of the estate and she will not give me one, how can I get one other than through her?

Will needs to be submitted with application for probate. After probate has been granted the will becomes a public document.. If sister applied for a grant of letters administration she confirmed by doing this that there was no will.

Right but she may suddenly ‘find’ a Will - what then?

I think it’s a little unusual that the gross and net figures are the same. Who paid for the funeral? This invoice would be deducted from the gross figure together with any unpaid bills eg credit card bill, utility bill due etc.
estate accounts do not need to be registered anywhere so you can only get a copy from her. I suggest you ask for a copy and give her x time to respond with the details and advise her that if she fails to provide accounts you will seek legal advice.

This could be because there was no estate agent fees as the house was sold to the daughter, and they maybe probably covered the legal fees themselves to keep it under the radar?

Who paid the funeral cost, as this would have come from the estate? Or at least could have been an estate ‘debt’.

@coldcallerbaiter but if she finds a will that would be odd as if she applied for LofA she must have known there wasn't one?

OP - from google:

• Who can request a copy
• Only residuary beneficiaries can request a copy of the estate accounts. A residuary beneficiary is someone who receives the remaining estate after all debts, taxes, expenses, and gifts have been paid out.
• What to do if the Personal Representative doesn't provide a copy
• If the Personal Representative doesn't provide a copy of the estate accounts, the residuary beneficiary can apply for an Inventory and Account Order from the Probate Registry. This is a court order that obligates the Personal Representative to provide the information.
• What estate accounts include
• Estate accounts include information about the estate's assets and liabilities, including executors' expenses.

You can only get the estate accounts from your sister. She didn't have to provide them to any official bodies from whom you could get copies, but she is required by law to give you a copy.

Assume you would then need to go back to HMCTS and say. -we found the will. Not sure what would happen in practice if estate has already been distributed in accordance with intestacy rules. I think the key document the OP needs is estate accounts. If there was actually no money then it makes no difference if a will is found.