Page 4 | House deeds problem

OneGreyBiscuit · 2024-12-16T06:08:33+00:00

Myself, brother and mother moved in 2000 and with that the deeds to the house were put in all our names. My brother passed in August and his executor wanted to look through the documents as my brother was on the deeds. It transpires that our dear old mother changed the deeds into her name only in 2009. I think because my brother got into financial difficulties, although neither myself or brother signed anything agreeing to this. I am now at a stage of cutting contact with her as I'm done but can anyone give me any advice on the house situation?

recyclingisaPITA · 17/12/2024 07:27

2025istheyear · 17/12/2024 06:41

If you didn’t pay any of it I don’t understand why you feel you have a claim.

I would let it go.

Inheritance isn’t a right in the UK for children.

Your mother being a wife had inheritance rights first when your DF died.

Get on with your own life.

Make sure you leave your house to your own children.

Edited

Why can't you understand why OP thinks she has a claim?
It's quite simple.
.
OP was told in 2000 that she was now 1/3 owner of a house. She believed that to be true.
.
If it was true and somehow the house is 💯 her mother's since 2009, that's concerning, because it means OP has been robbed of 1/3 of a house and the fraud/theft/robbery (whatever it's officially called) took place 16yrs ago.

Original poster

OneGreyBiscuit · 17/12/2024 07:34

Soontobe60 · 17/12/2024 06:27

I don’t think anyones called her grubby.
OP, surely your dc will benefit from your house when you die?

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I've had 2 pp calls me grabby, maybe not grubby tho! Yes they most certainly will as young people will need all the help they can get now. As I've stated I'm more concerned about my children's future than anything else.

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Original poster

OneGreyBiscuit · 17/12/2024 07:42

FlabbergastedByTheGorgons · 17/12/2024 06:47

Oh and you hate your mum and want her out of your life, but you're in a snit because she owns her own home and you don't have a stake in it. Lovely.

👏👏👏

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Original poster

OneGreyBiscuit · 17/12/2024 07:47

clarrylove · 17/12/2024 07:26

Have you been declaring that you own a share in this house all this time? Have you been paying maintenance for it etc? Seems odd to me that you thought you owned a property for the last 24 years but it seems now you might not have. That could affect all sorts of things - benefits, your own mortgage etc

No I haven't as I have no money, doesn't stop her from wafting her savings balance literally in my face though. And I'm not committing any offence as I don't own any other property either.

OP posts:

Original poster

OneGreyBiscuit · 17/12/2024 07:53

Or I should say I had no money until my brother left me some.

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Original poster

OneGreyBiscuit · 17/12/2024 07:57

FlabbergastedByTheGorgons · 17/12/2024 06:46

So your dad died and left his property to his wife, your mother. Which is normal.

Your brother then persuades/pressures/bullies your mother into putting her new home, when she moves, into all three of your names, despite you and him making no financial contribution to its purchase, because he is concerned she won't leave it to you when she dies - which she is under no obligation to do.

And you're now kicking off because your mother's home isn't in your name as well.

Is that right?

And btw my brother died an awful death in August so I suggest you don't speak ill of him! Has it occured to you that he wanted to do this as he was also fully aware of what a spiteful, vindictive woman she is?

OP posts:

twobluehorses · 17/12/2024 08:01

You had absolutely no legal right to the house. it sounds like your DM was coerced by your brother.

IF your dm did transfer a share of the house to you there would have been a cost running into hundreds of pounds, you would have met with solicitors etc.

This isn’t your property. It’s your DMs.

If you genuinely believe otherwise.then make an appointment with a solicitor. Stop waffling on about bingo friends and your poor children.

Original poster

OneGreyBiscuit · 17/12/2024 08:14

twobluehorses · 17/12/2024 08:01

You had absolutely no legal right to the house. it sounds like your DM was coerced by your brother.

IF your dm did transfer a share of the house to you there would have been a cost running into hundreds of pounds, you would have met with solicitors etc.

This isn’t your property. It’s your DMs.

If you genuinely believe otherwise.then make an appointment with a solicitor. Stop waffling on about bingo friends and your poor children.

I must be imagining seeing the original deeds/registry containing all our signatures amongst all the newer documents then?righty ho! And fyi I will be seeing a solicitor not just waffling on. I'm trying to put about a bigger picture but obviously wasting my time. So if she does leave it to Joe bloggs down the road and me and the kids get nothing and I start a new thread about that, I'll get slaughtered for having not done anything about it. Probably by the same ones who are saying she can do what she wants. Can't win really!!

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westisbest1982 · 17/12/2024 08:15

You had absolutely no legal right to the house. it sounds like your DM was coerced by your brother.

But her name was on the deeds, so you’re wrong.

Good luck OP with getting the details of deeds and doing what’s right for your kids. If you don’t fight for them, who will?

MisterPNumber23 · 17/12/2024 08:17

OneGreyBiscuit · 17/12/2024 08:14

I must be imagining seeing the original deeds/registry containing all our signatures amongst all the newer documents then?righty ho! And fyi I will be seeing a solicitor not just waffling on. I'm trying to put about a bigger picture but obviously wasting my time. So if she does leave it to Joe bloggs down the road and me and the kids get nothing and I start a new thread about that, I'll get slaughtered for having not done anything about it. Probably by the same ones who are saying she can do what she wants. Can't win really!!

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Why aren't you just going to the land registry site and downloading what's on there? That is a quick and easy thing for you to do.

The fourth response to you early yesterday morning suggested you do this.

Original poster

OneGreyBiscuit · 17/12/2024 08:19

MisterPNumber23 · 17/12/2024 08:17

Why aren't you just going to the land registry site and downloading what's on there? That is a quick and easy thing for you to do.

The fourth response to you early yesterday morning suggested you do this.

Edited

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I have!!!

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Ilovemyshed · 17/12/2024 08:22

There is something odd about all this OP.

When you purchase a house, you do not sign the Deeds. You sign a Contract and TR1 form. These are signed in the presence of witnesses who also sign.

Once the contracts exchange then complete, monies are transferred and then the solicitor arranges the registration at the Land Registry of the Title Deed of the property, which nowadays is registered electronically.

So you need to be sure:
(1) did you sign as a purchaser or a witness when the property was purchased
(2) in what names was the property then registered at the Land Registry

Do you have a copy of what you signed? As a purchaser you should do, as a witness, you won't.

It doesn't sound like you have properly understood this paperwork process.

Finally, you do not have an automatic right to ownership of the house if you have not made any financial contribution. Nor do you have any automatic right to inherit and neither do your children.

I suggest you see a conveyancing solicitor who can take a look at the history and any paperwork you have and advise you properly of your position.

MisterPNumber23 · 17/12/2024 08:24

OneGreyBiscuit · 17/12/2024 08:19

I have!!!

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What are the names of the firms on there, the one with your names on and the one with just your mother's name on.

FlabbergastedByTheGorgons · 17/12/2024 08:27

I'd be interested to hear your mother's perspective on this.

mitogoshigg · 17/12/2024 08:30

@OneGreyBiscuit

But it the tr1 form you sign to transfer ownership of deeds from the previous owner to you, if you didn't sign the tr1 form then the house was never put into your names, it must have been another form you signed. I signed a tr1 form only yesterday!

DogInATent · 17/12/2024 08:37

Ilovemyshed · 17/12/2024 08:22

There is something odd about all this OP.

When you purchase a house, you do not sign the Deeds. You sign a Contract and TR1 form. These are signed in the presence of witnesses who also sign.

Once the contracts exchange then complete, monies are transferred and then the solicitor arranges the registration at the Land Registry of the Title Deed of the property, which nowadays is registered electronically.

So you need to be sure:
(1) did you sign as a purchaser or a witness when the property was purchased
(2) in what names was the property then registered at the Land Registry

Do you have a copy of what you signed? As a purchaser you should do, as a witness, you won't.

It doesn't sound like you have properly understood this paperwork process.

Finally, you do not have an automatic right to ownership of the house if you have not made any financial contribution. Nor do you have any automatic right to inherit and neither do your children.

I suggest you see a conveyancing solicitor who can take a look at the history and any paperwork you have and advise you properly of your position.

The timeline is confusing, because the OP has scattered details through the thread.

But if the house was purchased in 2000 (using proceeds from the original RTB property) and the deeds were amended in 2009 according to the Land Registry then there is an original set of contracts/deeds from 2000-2009 to be accounted for, and there was presumably a change of some sort registered in 2009. It's the 2000 deeds that the OP is recalling as having all three noted with an interest in the property.

It's unclear what has prompted the Executor of the brother's estate to check the deeds - if there was a will that stated partial ownership of the property then this would provide some corroboration that the brother has the same understanding as the sister. If he died intestate and the Executor is basing this on the OP telling them that the property was a shared asset then this is not corroborating. The OP and the Executor both need professional legal advice to unpick this, either way. Particularly the Executor.

Original poster

OneGreyBiscuit · 17/12/2024 08:42

This is all that's left of anothers name on another document, it is from the latest land registry I downloaded yesterday. The blanked out name is my brothers.

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Mindymomo · 17/12/2024 08:43

I’m glad you are seeing a Solicitor who can obtain copies of the forms that have been filled in and see if there’s anything incorrect. In your position I would want to know what exactly is going on and in reality you do need to know for future years financial planning, where you owned part of a house along with your Brother. You’ve now got copy of the Deeds, but you need to see copies of TR1 form transferring yours and your brothers part of the house over to your Mum, that will be interesting, as I said previously you would have had to sign it.

Original poster

OneGreyBiscuit · 17/12/2024 08:44

FlabbergastedByTheGorgons · 17/12/2024 08:27

I'd be interested to hear your mother's perspective on this.

Yeh I bet you would!🙄

OP posts:

INeedAnotherName · 17/12/2024 08:44

titchy · 16/12/2024 19:41

I’m wondering if you and your brother signed something like an adult occupiers consent form, as you were over 18 but living in a house owned by your mother?

I have t

I'm another one thinking this is what you have signed. Otherwise it would be extremely odd for all three of you being on the new deeds considering only one was putting the funds up. As a spouse/sahp she certainly also "worked" especially considering the era of very few timesaving devices such as automatic washing machines.

First things first, get a copy of the 2000 deeds.

Original poster

OneGreyBiscuit · 17/12/2024 08:47

DogInATent · 17/12/2024 08:37

The timeline is confusing, because the OP has scattered details through the thread.

But if the house was purchased in 2000 (using proceeds from the original RTB property) and the deeds were amended in 2009 according to the Land Registry then there is an original set of contracts/deeds from 2000-2009 to be accounted for, and there was presumably a change of some sort registered in 2009. It's the 2000 deeds that the OP is recalling as having all three noted with an interest in the property.

It's unclear what has prompted the Executor of the brother's estate to check the deeds - if there was a will that stated partial ownership of the property then this would provide some corroboration that the brother has the same understanding as the sister. If he died intestate and the Executor is basing this on the OP telling them that the property was a shared asset then this is not corroborating. The OP and the Executor both need professional legal advice to unpick this, either way. Particularly the Executor.

Edited

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My brother's executor is the one who discovered this in the first place. He's a lot more experienced with this sort of thing and he will come with me to the solicitors. But as soon as he seen it had been changed he stopped looking further and said it needs to be looked into.

OP posts:

twobluehorses · 17/12/2024 08:48

OneGreyBiscuit · 17/12/2024 08:42

This is all that's left of anothers name on another document, it is from the latest land registry I downloaded yesterday. The blanked out name is my brothers.

Well this indicates that there was indeed a transfer from the housing organisation into joint names. It doesn't however look like the property ever belonged to your father so that is a red herring.

The further confusion has arisen OP because you have been talking about seeing deeds with signatures on it. Deeds don't contain signatures nowadays. In fact there will not even have been "deeds" since this was registered land at the point at which it was transferred from Wilcon Homes.

You need an appointment with a solicitor, simple as that. Nobody here can tell you what has happened and whether it was correct/lawful.

Original poster

OneGreyBiscuit · 17/12/2024 09:13

Mindymomo · 17/12/2024 08:43

I’m glad you are seeing a Solicitor who can obtain copies of the forms that have been filled in and see if there’s anything incorrect. In your position I would want to know what exactly is going on and in reality you do need to know for future years financial planning, where you owned part of a house along with your Brother. You’ve now got copy of the Deeds, but you need to see copies of TR1 form transferring yours and your brothers part of the house over to your Mum, that will be interesting, as I said previously you would have had to sign it.

There's nothing in her paperwork which has our signatures on it, only the registry/deeds? from 2000, there is no way myself or my brother signed these forms. Does the solicitor keep them or does the owner also keep a copy do you know?

OP posts:

JumpingPumpkin · 17/12/2024 09:14

You can write to the Land Registry yourself, explain the situation as best you can giving details of the property and names of people involved. They will look into it for you. They'll be able to explain what process was used to change the proprietor (if that happened).

That will alert them if a fraud has taken place.

Address for members of the public
HM Land Registry Citizen Centre PO Box 74 Gloucester GL14 9BB

custardpyjamas · 17/12/2024 09:51

If your father didn't leave a will the house will have passed to his wife automatically on his death (assuming you are in England). It sounds like your brother persuaded your mother to put you all on the deeds, possibly to avoid potential IHT when your mother passed. It seems like she changed her mind, I don't know whether she could revoke her agreement to share the house with you and your brother (or maybe it was never fully formalised). One for the lawyers.

Edit: Was she paying you and your brother rent if she was the only one living there, or the shares in the house may be considered gifts with reservations, which may also complicate ownership.