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Original poster

House deeds problem

123 replies

OneGreyBiscuit · 16/12/2024 06:08

Myself, brother and mother moved in 2000 and with that the deeds to the house were put in all our names. My brother passed in August and his executor wanted to look through the documents as my brother was on the deeds. It transpires that our dear old mother changed the deeds into her name only in 2009. I think because my brother got into financial difficulties, although neither myself or brother signed anything agreeing to this. I am now at a stage of cutting contact with her as I'm done but can anyone give me any advice on the house situation?

OP posts:
Swissrollover · 16/12/2024 15:56

Hypothetically, if the mum alleged that she was coerced into adding her children's names to her property, owned solely by her, how could she legally have reclaimed full ownership? Would she have needed to take it to court and the children made aware?

mitogoshigg · 16/12/2024 16:34

I have just sorted out changing deeds and it's pretty involved, requires a solicitor and costs were fairly high. Unless she know a solicitor who turned the other way, I don't see how it could be changed without your knowledge. You need a solicitor who can advise on this, I won't recommend mine as his pace was let's say glacial!

PinotPony · 16/12/2024 17:53

I think you’re a little confused about the documentation here. A property title “deed” doesn’t have any signatures on it. It simply lists the names of the people who legally own the property.

To change the ownership of the property, the owners would usually complete a TR1 form which is filed at HM Land Registry with a fee. That form has to be signed by all the owners.

Are you 100% certain that the property was transferred into the joint names of your mother, your brother and you following your father’s death? Did you see a copy of the title with your name on it?

Much as your brother may have wanted you and him to be named as co-owners, if your Dad’s Will left everything to your Mum (or if he died intestate) then the executors would have been obliged to transfer the property into her sole name.

You can obtain the historical title deeds by creating an account on HMLR. I’d suggest you do that first to determine the historical ownership of the property before you incur legal fees.

Wayk · 16/12/2024 18:07

Just to say I am so sorry that you lost your brother. Please seek legal advice. Your mother had no right to take you off the deeds. Best wishes.

Original poster
OneGreyBiscuit · 16/12/2024 18:39

PinotPony · 16/12/2024 17:53

I think you’re a little confused about the documentation here. A property title “deed” doesn’t have any signatures on it. It simply lists the names of the people who legally own the property.

To change the ownership of the property, the owners would usually complete a TR1 form which is filed at HM Land Registry with a fee. That form has to be signed by all the owners.

Are you 100% certain that the property was transferred into the joint names of your mother, your brother and you following your father’s death? Did you see a copy of the title with your name on it?

Much as your brother may have wanted you and him to be named as co-owners, if your Dad’s Will left everything to your Mum (or if he died intestate) then the executors would have been obliged to transfer the property into her sole name.

You can obtain the historical title deeds by creating an account on HMLR. I’d suggest you do that first to determine the historical ownership of the property before you incur legal fees.

We definitely didn't sign a tr1 form, my dad never made a will as far as I'm aware (his death was quite early and unexpected) and everything automatically went to his wife. So basically the house in London was purchased in 1996 under right to buy and was in my parents names, he died in 1998 and put the house up for sale in 1999 when the three years you have to wait to sell it under right to buy laws. Moved in early 2000 and that's when the deeds/registry was put in all three names.

OP posts:
Quitelikeit · 16/12/2024 18:44

This is awful op

I hope you see the post above where you can complete the link and see the changes she has made

Original poster
OneGreyBiscuit · 16/12/2024 19:12

PinkTonic · 16/12/2024 13:25

If you jointly own the whole house and you die before her, ownership would pass to her anyway. If you want separate shares that you can each pass on you have to set it up like that. From what you describe it sounds like all 3 of you jointly owned the house and what is more that it was her house after your father died and you and your brother got your names added? You didn’t jointly purchase it?

Show quote history

Yes thats correct

OP posts:
Soontobe60 · 16/12/2024 19:23

Quitelikeit · 16/12/2024 18:44

This is awful op

I hope you see the post above where you can complete the link and see the changes she has made

Why is it ‘awful’?
OPs parents managed to buy an ex council house at a very reduced price. DF dies, house now belongs solely to DM, as is usually the case when one spouse dies. 3 years later, DM moves house and for some reason adds her children’s name to the ownership of the new house according to OP. This in itself is a very odd thing to do - unless she was coerced into doing this by one of her children as a way of avoiding potential care home fees. OP is now angry that her name isn't actually on the deeds, Aka Land Registry, as she believes shes entitled to 1.3 of the house. Talk about grabby by the OP

PinotPony · 16/12/2024 19:24

OneGreyBiscuit · 16/12/2024 18:39

We definitely didn't sign a tr1 form, my dad never made a will as far as I'm aware (his death was quite early and unexpected) and everything automatically went to his wife. So basically the house in London was purchased in 1996 under right to buy and was in my parents names, he died in 1998 and put the house up for sale in 1999 when the three years you have to wait to sell it under right to buy laws. Moved in early 2000 and that's when the deeds/registry was put in all three names.

Show quote history

Who put the house up for market and dealt with the purchase of the new property? Your mother? What evidence were you given at the time to show the house had been purchased in joint names?

Are you sure you and your brother didn’t have a charge over the property rather than owning it? Again, you’d be able to see this on the historical title deed from HMLR.

Unless you have a copy of the title deed from 2000 with your name on it, I think you need to check whether you ever had any legal title to it. You can’t build a case saying she has defrauded you of something you may never have owned. That’s your starting point.

PinotPony · 16/12/2024 19:39

OneGreyBiscuit · 16/12/2024 06:33

Yup, that's very similar to what I see with just her signature on it. I didn't look at too much because my head was all over the place at the time. I definitely see the original deeds/land registry with all our signatures, the letter from the solicitor regarding the change and a land registry with just her signature on it

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What is the document with all your signatures on it? It won’t be the title deeds. So what is it that you’ve signed?

I’m wondering if you and your brother signed something like an adult occupiers consent form, as you were over 18 but living in a house owned by your mother?

It’s all very odd. What does the letter from the solicitor regarding the transfer of ownership in 2009 actually say? I assume it’s addressed to your mum or did they write to you too?

titchy · 16/12/2024 19:41

I’m wondering if you and your brother signed something like an adult occupiers consent form, as you were over 18 but living in a house owned by your mother?

I have t

titchy · 16/12/2024 19:42

I was thinking that was what OP and her brother had signed as well.

Original poster
OneGreyBiscuit · 16/12/2024 19:54

Soontobe60 · 16/12/2024 19:23

Why is it ‘awful’?
OPs parents managed to buy an ex council house at a very reduced price. DF dies, house now belongs solely to DM, as is usually the case when one spouse dies. 3 years later, DM moves house and for some reason adds her children’s name to the ownership of the new house according to OP. This in itself is a very odd thing to do - unless she was coerced into doing this by one of her children as a way of avoiding potential care home fees. OP is now angry that her name isn't actually on the deeds, Aka Land Registry, as she believes shes entitled to 1.3 of the house. Talk about grabby by the OP

Show quote history

This is the second time I have been called grabby and I'm getting a bit fed up with it. As I've said before if she wants to leave the house to her new bfs her neighbours or cat protection league, I really don't care it would be worth it to get her out of my life. I have been told by people who have known both me and her for forty years to quote "your dad worked for that house and you'd be perfectly happy for it to be left to her bingo cronies, think about your kids future". Just seems like a go to adjective on threads like these to people who dare bring up inheritance "oh you're just grabby, they can leave it to whoever they like". Do her grandchildren, who have no beef with her deserve nothing as well or are they grabby too? Id be quite happy if she left it to them.

OP posts:
Shopgirl1 · 16/12/2024 21:32

Inheritance isn’t about who deserves something usually. It’s down to who the owner wants to leave their belongings or wealth.
It’s unusual your mother would have put you both on the deeds as owners without you having contributed financially. Are you sure that actually happened?

Original poster
OneGreyBiscuit · 17/12/2024 05:18

Shopgirl1 · 16/12/2024 21:32

Inheritance isn’t about who deserves something usually. It’s down to who the owner wants to leave their belongings or wealth.
It’s unusual your mother would have put you both on the deeds as owners without you having contributed financially. Are you sure that actually happened?

Yes I'm sure. I may not have contributed to it financially but neither has she. She may have been his wife but we were his children, does that not count for anything? Legally she is entitled to leave it to whom ever she likes but morally it's very wrong. I've had 50 years of hell with the woman. I don't believe for a second that some of you preaching to me on here would be happy in my situation either. Trying to defend a dear old lady who would rather go to bingo then spend time with her dying son in the hospice, saying in front of him about how much time the doctor thinks he has left....i could go on and on. I really despair!!

OP posts:
Guavafish1 · 17/12/2024 05:39

I agree with everyone who says you need to request the 2000 deeds to see if you and you’re brother are indeed on them.

good luck

Also don’t be goaded by people who are calling you grubby… your not, it’s worth exploring… you just need to know the facts first.

Soontobe60 · 17/12/2024 06:27

Guavafish1 · 17/12/2024 05:39

I agree with everyone who says you need to request the 2000 deeds to see if you and you’re brother are indeed on them.

good luck

Also don’t be goaded by people who are calling you grubby… your not, it’s worth exploring… you just need to know the facts first.

I don’t think anyones called her grubby.
OP, surely your dc will benefit from your house when you die?

2025istheyear · 17/12/2024 06:41

If you didn’t pay any of it I don’t understand why you feel you have a claim.

I would let it go.

Inheritance isn’t a right in the UK for children.

Your mother being a wife had inheritance rights first when your DF died.

Get on with your own life.

Make sure you leave your house to your own children.

FlabbergastedByTheGorgons · 17/12/2024 06:46

So your dad died and left his property to his wife, your mother. Which is normal.

Your brother then persuades/pressures/bullies your mother into putting her new home, when she moves, into all three of your names, despite you and him making no financial contribution to its purchase, because he is concerned she won't leave it to you when she dies - which she is under no obligation to do.

And you're now kicking off because your mother's home isn't in your name as well.

Is that right?

FlabbergastedByTheGorgons · 17/12/2024 06:47

Oh and you hate your mum and want her out of your life, but you're in a snit because she owns her own home and you don't have a stake in it. Lovely.

WinterBird24 · 17/12/2024 07:12

Swissrollover · 16/12/2024 15:56

Hypothetically, if the mum alleged that she was coerced into adding her children's names to her property, owned solely by her, how could she legally have reclaimed full ownership? Would she have needed to take it to court and the children made aware?

Yes - she’d need to have reported it to the police.

Whyherewego · 17/12/2024 07:12

@OneGreyBiscuit it doesn't really matter what all these people think about your mum ! It's pretty simple. If your names were registered as owners of the property and then a form submitted to remove you. This should have been signed by you and your brother. So either these signatures were forged in which case you have a case to bring against mum. Or you were never on there in the first place.
Just ask mum why it changed or the solicitor involved

WinterBird24 · 17/12/2024 07:16

Whether or not OP is grubby is a completely separate issue as to whether or not a fraud has taken place.

clarrylove · 17/12/2024 07:26

Have you been declaring that you own a share in this house all this time? Have you been paying maintenance for it etc? Seems odd to me that you thought you owned a property for the last 24 years but it seems now you might not have. That could affect all sorts of things - benefits, your own mortgage etc

FlabbergastedByTheGorgons · 17/12/2024 07:27

clarrylove · 17/12/2024 07:26

Have you been declaring that you own a share in this house all this time? Have you been paying maintenance for it etc? Seems odd to me that you thought you owned a property for the last 24 years but it seems now you might not have. That could affect all sorts of things - benefits, your own mortgage etc

Good questions.