DWP chasing debt of deceased mother .

[Tenaciousbeyondallthings]

Can I please make it clear from the outset that I am after legal opinion. NOT moral or lay opinions from non legally qualified people.

My dad died in 2022. He had been ill with schizophrenia most of my life. I have 2 siblings.

He was in an assisted accommodation. He was in receipt of the highest rate of DLA for both mobility and care . To be absolutely clear , I had no influence or control over his money . I was not a POA or an Appointee to DWP. His money , benefits , rent were handled by a 'corporate appointee' (Social Services for the area)

We visited monthly but that was the extent of our involvement.

When he died he had left a very simple WILL.. leaving his 'Estate' to be divided equally between myself and my siblings. I was named as executor as I have a respected job (think nurse/police/ambulance) ..

It took a little while to gather his accounts .

After about 9 months I was in a position to make bequests. A total of £7k each.

1 year and 3 months later - DWP tell me that the estate owes them. £13k. This is because her DLA had taken his savings over £16k and he was no longer entitled.

Therefore owes £13k in UC..

The money was distributed 5 months earlier and spent .

They are pursuing me as executor for the 13k ..

My argument against this is that I had no control or ability to check his income from benefits was correct as social services were in charge of this.

My questions are :

How long should an executor wait before distributing money to beneficiaries when we had no idea there was a debt. ? I understood that as Executor I needed to pay beneficiaries in a 'timely manner'

If dad was not entitled to the money then surely the appointee is the one responsible. ? How could I know there was a debt without having previous knowledge ?

I have no debt. I do not want debt but feel this is unfair. I have written all the above to DWP but still receive the same threats of a debt collector..

Am I liable ? If I am then we (siblings and I have to pay it. But they are far from 'comfortable' .. one spent it on a car to get to work and the other on hip replacement surgery.. (so she could keep working)

What would be your legal advice ?

@Mirabai that may well be a good idea now. I was just responding to the comments that she should have had a lawyer in the first place. Any lawyer fees can quickly mount up though, and as pps have said the debt will probably technically stand (no figures to confirm) but I would feel there is a potential case for someone with some clout like MP etc to argue for some help for the OPs position.

It depends on the date the savings went over £16000. If it was several months before his death the overpayment would soon have mounted up.

I would go after the social services appointee for mismanaging your dad's finances.

Yes the overpayment could have accumulated over time but the initial calculation is not the end of the matter. Another calculation called Diminishing Notional capital would have had to be made. This assumes the capital is reduced by the sum lost in means tested benefit on a weekly basis.
It’s still not impossible for the overpaid sum to be several times the amount of capital over the limit, but it’s not that common.
The OP needs to seek clarification of the calculation to ensure that it is correct.

I am a private client lawyer. A solicitor is not going to be able to give you an answer on whether it has to be repaid or not. They are going to repeat what has already been repeated in this post. Did the DWP act reasonably? Did the OP do a trustee act notice ? Did the OP do the Tell us once? Was it reasonable for the OP to distribute the estate?Is there any existing case law where a court has previously ruled on what is reasonable in relation to the DWP and debts? If you want to fight it, you can either pay a solicitor to fight it on your behalf or you can fight it yourself. The likelihood is due to the amount owing the DWP will fight you for it but if the money has already been distributed and spent by those beneficiaries, then you don’t really have much choice but to try and fight.

I'd write back and say that after all due diligence and waiting x months after the death (and having used the 'tell us once' service), his small estate has now been distributed among the beneficiaries and that's that. Tell them that if they are keen to pursue the matter, then they should take it up with Social Services, who were managing his money, and if there was any overpayment, then it is due to their negligence.

Benefits processor and fraud management background. They’re trying it on.
And what @leeverarch says.

It’ll move to a write off.

have the DWP done a Diminishing Notional Capital assessment?

At the point where the capital goes over £16K they then need to g0 13 weeks forward & reduce the actual capital balance by the amount of overpaid benefit to get a notional capital figure then a further 13 weeks and so on.

Its a strictly notional figure but in practice means that most people only ever get an overpayment of 13 weeks

Yes they did do Tell Us Once.

A benefits lawyer will already know the relevant case law relating to late claims on an estate by the DWP and will be able to organise the appeal (ie mandatory reconsideration) for them and if necessary take it to tribunal.

Useful info here from a law firm here:

department-for-work-and-pensions-dwp-claims-against-an-estate

The DWP can only recover the debt from the deceased’s estate. If the estate is insolvent, the debt will be written, off as it cannot be recovered from relatives. If the estate did have the money, but this has been distributed to the heirs, the DWP can still pursue its claim and the Executors will be personally liable. They may be able to recover money previously distributed, but this is not always possible.

And here:

/the-dwp-have-put-me-on-notice-of-claims-against-the-estate

The DWP has the legal authority under Section 126 of the Social Security Administration Act 1992 to ask for a list of the assets and liabilities in the estate of the deceased person at the time they passed away

^The personal representative (executor or administrator of an estate) will be responsible for liaising with the DWP and ensuring that any claim against the estate is settled before completing the administration of the estate and distributing estate funds. If you distribute the estate and a claim is subsequently made, or you distribute the estate whilst a claim by the DWP is ongoing, you may be personally liable to settle the outstanding sum.

So looking through old emails and correspondence today we have found two interesting things. One is the acknowledgment of 'tell us once' from DWP 5 days after dad died. We also have a letter dated about 3 weeks later advising us of a pension payment of £150 owed to the estate up to the time of death.

How many people here honestly think it's reasonable for the dwp to then say NOTHING for 15 months !

So what do other executors do. ? Sit on the beneficiary's money for years on the off chance someone will come out of the woodwork with a claim ?

We have a breakdown of the overpayment.. and the diminution of capital. It spans the period 2008-2022 !!

I do actually understand that the DWP want their money back. What I do not understand is why the corporate appointee - social services, who have caused all of this - are not responsible ? It was literally their job to! and surely failing in this duty for 14 years makes them culpable.

We have legal insurance so now need to find a competent lawyer who understands the role and responsibilities of corporate appointees AND the situation when the capital is amassed solely by unspent disability benefit.

Thank you everyone for some helpful advice. I will update when we have an outcome.

Good luck op.
So glad you have legal cover.

DWP investigations generally take a long time, but it’s odd that they didn’t notify you.

You need to find a benefits lawyer used to dealing with the DWP because they will know how likely you are to be successful based on past experience (as well as case law) and how best to deal with the mandatory reconsideration letter and potential tribunal.

It's all well and good saying it's not fair and blaming it on others, but it does fall entirely on you. It doesn't matter if the king was managing his finances, it was your job to manage his estate.

Speak to a solicitor.

Unfortunately the duties of an Executor are clearly listed on various websites. I’ve been Executor for my parents and in laws. In all cases, I didn’t distribute money out until I had heard from all government parties, banks, pension companies and utilities that all was settled. You will have to contact them and be honest as to what has happened, you haven’t done anything wrong. Whether they insist on obtaining the money owed back is another matter.

Newham Social Services are responsible for there being an overpayment in the first place; but you were liable for his estate as the executor.

Your argument would have to be that you notified them, were never notified of an investigation (which should have happened to stop you from distributing the estate) and had no reason to believe there could be an overpayment, and therefore distributed the estate.

There are two arguments

1. LB Newham is the liable party to repay the overpayment especially if his money was paid to them.
2. I would get a complaint in to Newham asking that they refund the OP

I'm sorry for the loss of your Dad.

I'm not a lawyer however I have been in a similar situation. One of my parents died when I was in my teens and the other parent took a while to notify the DWP, due to their own cognitive issues. DWP claimed back the benefits paid from the date of death till the benefits were stopped, upon notification of death. We were advised that they were legally within their rights to do this and the amount had to be paid back

@Tenaciousbeyondallthings Hi Husband works for local authority as welfare right lawyer he tells me that there has been a recent legal case where the appointee was pursued by the DWP, and it was held by an upper tribunal that the appointee was liable for failing to properly administer the affairs of the benefits claimant.

PM me on Monday for details

THANK YOU !! That is exactly what I needed to hear.

I don't actually think the DWP is wrong in pursuing this money. What I do think is entirely wrong is that an organisation is charged with responsibility of looking after somebody's finances and completely fails to do so.

I did exactly this AND received a payment of 'owed pension' . In what world would anyone then expect that the same person owed THEM ?

plus any debtor to an estate has six months from probate to lodge a claim as I understand it

The appointee should have been keeping an eye on the savings. This is a common problem in people with MH issues, they get all this money and often don't spend it and it builds up. I have a client who is constantly having to cancel benefit claims as his savings goes over 16k then has to reclaim when it drops below after he pays his own rent for a while.

When my parent died I notified DWP, obtained probate confirmed no inheritance tax payable. DWP wrote confirming overpayment of state pension which I settled. HMRC confirmed no tax due. I distributed the estate after 3 months as no property involved.

Around 2 months later, DWP wrote saying a pension credit overpayment due to savings. I think it was reviewing the inheritance tax record that triggered this. They specifically asked me to confirm whether I'd advertised the death in the gazette, not sure if that gives some protection? I hadn't.

I asked them to send me a full breakdown of said overpayment and when they did I checked it against bank statements. It was correct. As I had received bulk of estate and was executor, I just paid it without going back to other beneficiary.

In your case OP, ask for a breakdown of overpayment. I'm struggling to understand how £13k is owed, unless exceeding savings amounts had been going on for years. Whilst DLA is not counted for benefit purposes, if it causes the recipient to exceed the disregarded savings amount.

Surely the Solicitor is talking about getting one of their profession to act in administering a low value estate not whether an hour or so of professional time is justified to advise on the overpayment of UC and its recoverability.

Hang on a sec, an overpayment from 2008 to 2022, 14 years, until his death. And they have only just noticed, after a recent review presumably, that an overpayment has occurred. For the last 14 years. For practically the whole of his claim.

Oh purlease.

"I don't actually think the DWP is wrong in pursuing this money. "

Well, I do!
When was the account reviewed by one of their senior finance staff? Not annually. It would appear never! Until a recent review and they've suddenly discovered an overpayment for practically the whole of his case.

Doesn't that classify as negligent?