DWP chasing debt of deceased mother .

[Tenaciousbeyondallthings]

Can I please make it clear from the outset that I am after legal opinion. NOT moral or lay opinions from non legally qualified people.

My dad died in 2022. He had been ill with schizophrenia most of my life. I have 2 siblings.

He was in an assisted accommodation. He was in receipt of the highest rate of DLA for both mobility and care . To be absolutely clear , I had no influence or control over his money . I was not a POA or an Appointee to DWP. His money , benefits , rent were handled by a 'corporate appointee' (Social Services for the area)

We visited monthly but that was the extent of our involvement.

When he died he had left a very simple WILL.. leaving his 'Estate' to be divided equally between myself and my siblings. I was named as executor as I have a respected job (think nurse/police/ambulance) ..

It took a little while to gather his accounts .

After about 9 months I was in a position to make bequests. A total of £7k each.

1 year and 3 months later - DWP tell me that the estate owes them. £13k. This is because her DLA had taken his savings over £16k and he was no longer entitled.

Therefore owes £13k in UC..

The money was distributed 5 months earlier and spent .

They are pursuing me as executor for the 13k ..

My argument against this is that I had no control or ability to check his income from benefits was correct as social services were in charge of this.

My questions are :

How long should an executor wait before distributing money to beneficiaries when we had no idea there was a debt. ? I understood that as Executor I needed to pay beneficiaries in a 'timely manner'

If dad was not entitled to the money then surely the appointee is the one responsible. ? How could I know there was a debt without having previous knowledge ?

I have no debt. I do not want debt but feel this is unfair. I have written all the above to DWP but still receive the same threats of a debt collector..

Am I liable ? If I am then we (siblings and I have to pay it. But they are far from 'comfortable' .. one spent it on a car to get to work and the other on hip replacement surgery.. (so she could keep working)

What would be your legal advice ?

Not a legal view but I had a similar experience, OP, my father died leaving a very small estate, no probate needed as there was no property. Some months later HMRC contacted me as executor to say he owed £1200 in tax (still not sure how as he’d been many years retired then in care before he died).

I just wrote and said I’d been unaware of any tax liability and the estate, such as it was, had been distributed so there was nothing left to pay it from. They noted my response and that was the last I heard of it.

I realise yours is a larger amount but the DWP might take a similar view if the cost to them of recovering the funds outweighs the gain.

This may be useful

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2022/01/dwp-has--no-legal-power--to-force-you-to-repay-pension-or-benefi/

This is a different scenario - its about beneficiaries not being responsible for paying back overpayments that have been made after the DWP / HMRC have been notified of a death.

@Tenaciousbeyondallthings I think, due to the length of time since he died, that they will be unable to claim from you. the estate has already been disbursed/

We were aware of the 'tell us once' .. informed by the registrar.: we did this . And no response for 15 months .. but tbh we didn't expect any .. he was a life long welfare recipient, so did not expect any inheritance... when it turned out there was , we were incredibly surprised.

We have never as a family had any dealings with social security.. (we now know much more !)

But if you don't know .. and another body are responsible for making sure he gets the right money - how are those with no input liable when that amount is wrong. ?

Surely Social services are wrong as they were here appointees and responsible to provide accurate savings amounts ?

It used to be that savings of DLA should not count towards capital limit, suggest Turn2us or CAB to check this is still the case.

Yes I agree you need legal advice.
I believe that the estate is liable. I don’t think waiting nine months is sufficient - you would have needed confirmation from the DWP that no sums were owed - 9 months is pretty soon in the world of estates. You as executor would be personally liable if you have distributed the estate already. Sorry - it must be gutting for you. Perhaps your relatives will help you split the bill. Do get a solicitor to advise though so that the position is certain.

I think this is wrong. As executor you are personally liable if you distribute the estate by mistake. It’s quite an onerous duty. You’re also personally liable for things like inheritance tax if you distribute without paying this from the estate. And the time limit for claiming is 12 years so 15 months is nothing.

I think you are right. @Tenaciousbeyondallthings get proper advice NOW

How long did he have over £16k in savings for? Is it possible it was just for a short period? Are they making any assumptions they shouldn’t?

I used to work for DWP, and monies owed can be pursued against the estate, but I have no idea if there is any time limit. Common sense would indicate that there should be.
The overpaid sum doesn’t add up though unless you paid a lot of expenses from the estate before reaching a final sum of £21,700. There is a sliding scale for reducing benefit due to capital before it reaches £16000, but a £13000 overpayment for £5,700 over the capital limit seems high. Have you seen a breakdown?
I would suggest the line to take with them is that as it has taken 15 months for them to ask for this money to be repaid they are too late and the money in the estate has been distributed. Let them show you the legislation which allows them to ask for money back after all of this time, rather than you have to search for some which might show you don’t.

When my DM died she had been in receipt of Pension Credit and either me or the solicitor dealing with the estate, can't remember which, got a letter from the DWP saying they were conducting an investigation, which I think is standard, solicitor said it was and not to worry and then several weeks after, another letter to say investigation had been completed. Was there not any letter from DWP as he was in receipt of benefits.

How would you prove that savings have been made purely from DLA though? Presumably any pensions plus DLA plus UC will all have been paid into the same bank account.

So there clearly is a debt and it is owed. Ideally you should seek proper advice but in lieu of this I'd call the DWP and explain the situation - if the money is gone, the money is gone. If you still have this you could pay this back or as PP upthread offer a payment plan.

Good luck

Exactly this !

I was never in charge of dad's finances .. !Newham social services were..if they fucked up .. why on earth am I to blame ??..

Yes there is a debt . We have no doubt about that !! However HIS FINANCES WERE CONTROLLED BY NEWHAM SOCIAL SERVICES !! (not me) so surely any mistakes are THEIR responsibility ?

I would make an appointment with your local citizens advice service and use the advice there to decide if you need to use a solicitor...
CAB are really good and helpful.

Have you called and spoken to them OP?
A friend works in debt collection for DWP. Apparently, in the case of a deceased person they have a policy of 'ask once'. In that they ask the relative once for the money to be repaid and that's it, they don't pursue it further. They aren't allowed to say don't worry, you don't have to pay, the money will be written off but try to make that clear without putting it into words. I don't know if there's an upper limit to how much they can write off in this way or if they write of fraud overpayment.

Give them a call, see what they say.

I would tell DWP this if you haven’t already. Invite them to contact Newham Social Services for confirmation.

1. did you do the tell us once, if you did then that will have notified DWP of the death. You then have a right to ask them why it took so long to advise you. Another poster is correct in that. They are meant to contact you to say that they are investigating the matter and they usually that ask you for more information.
2. did you place a trustee act notice for creditors in the local newspaper and in the times?

At the end of the day, there is no legal time limit for DWP to make a claim on the estate (if you did the trustee act notice, you would have legal protection as executor ) but their behavior has to be reasonable. If they delayed for over a year in contacting you at all then I would say that was unreasonable, especially if the tell us once was done.

Did you do this?

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/all-notices/content/103403

If so you might have some protection from the DWP.

See here

Unfortunately OP you are the executor. You are personally responsible to make sure that all liabilities are settled before distribution.

I appreciate and understand your frustration with Newham SS and wanting to point the finger in their direction but this is a little misplaced. To the extent the DWP have the ability to demand payment from you (and it's not my area of law), they would be demanding it from you as executor for not having properly administered the estate. The fact that any overpayment might have been the fault of another party does not directly help here - the question is whether you did what you should have done as executor to identify any debts owed. Having used Tell us Once and heard nothing for 15 months, this helps you argue that you met those duties and that would be what I would major on in any engagement with DWP. But I would agree with advising you to seek advice eg from CAB as to the nature of your liability here.

Yes this is correct. Regardless of who made the initial mistake, the money was overpaid and went into the estate, and that money belongs to the DWP who want it back. Your only defense is if you placed a trustee act notice or if the DWP have delayed unreasonably in contacting you to claim the money.

I think this is a red herring. Despite social services being at fault for the overpayment, if your father was still alive he'd be liable to repay it. Now that he's deceased, the estate is liable for it and by extension, you.

I've no idea re time limits etc, but I don't think you should focus your energy on the social services aspect. Good luck.