DWP chasing debt of deceased mother .

[Tenaciousbeyondallthings]

Can I please make it clear from the outset that I am after legal opinion. NOT moral or lay opinions from non legally qualified people.

My dad died in 2022. He had been ill with schizophrenia most of my life. I have 2 siblings.

He was in an assisted accommodation. He was in receipt of the highest rate of DLA for both mobility and care . To be absolutely clear , I had no influence or control over his money . I was not a POA or an Appointee to DWP. His money , benefits , rent were handled by a 'corporate appointee' (Social Services for the area)

We visited monthly but that was the extent of our involvement.

When he died he had left a very simple WILL.. leaving his 'Estate' to be divided equally between myself and my siblings. I was named as executor as I have a respected job (think nurse/police/ambulance) ..

It took a little while to gather his accounts .

After about 9 months I was in a position to make bequests. A total of £7k each.

1 year and 3 months later - DWP tell me that the estate owes them. £13k. This is because her DLA had taken his savings over £16k and he was no longer entitled.

Therefore owes £13k in UC..

The money was distributed 5 months earlier and spent .

They are pursuing me as executor for the 13k ..

My argument against this is that I had no control or ability to check his income from benefits was correct as social services were in charge of this.

My questions are :

How long should an executor wait before distributing money to beneficiaries when we had no idea there was a debt. ? I understood that as Executor I needed to pay beneficiaries in a 'timely manner'

If dad was not entitled to the money then surely the appointee is the one responsible. ? How could I know there was a debt without having previous knowledge ?

I have no debt. I do not want debt but feel this is unfair. I have written all the above to DWP but still receive the same threats of a debt collector..

Am I liable ? If I am then we (siblings and I have to pay it. But they are far from 'comfortable' .. one spent it on a car to get to work and the other on hip replacement surgery.. (so she could keep working)

What would be your legal advice ?

I can recommend a good benefits solicitor. PM if you’re interested.

I would fight this tooth and nail, as a matter of principle. I'm staggered at all posters suggesting you should pay it. But then I love a good fight with HMRC or DWP and have managed to get them to back down innumerable times, actually almost every single time. So I suggest fighting, hard. Polite but firm.

You've had good advice. Agree that the timings are 'unreasonable', given 15 months, and the estate divided.

I also agree with @LumpyandBumps : "but a £13000 overpayment for £5,700 over the capital limit seems high. Have you seen a breakdown?"

Later you might have to ask for a breakdown. £13k, oh purlease - how did they get to that figure?

I'd also first download the bank statements into excel and analyse out, trying to prove which parts are DLA, any UC, pensions etc. To see if I could prove the point re the savings hitting the limit re unspent DLA. Worth trying first.

Take some advice and be careful.

And then an initial polite e-mail, using all the advice above. Using the word unreasonable. I think that they are just chancing it, and after one email of refusal the case will hopefully be closed. It might not. But if not I'd enjoy the fight, until it gets to the point that it's verging on harassment, which you then subtly tell them.

Good luck.

Thank you for some great advice.
Yes I am up for a fight.

We did use the 'tell us once' option.
No we didn't use a gazette notice.

Yes we did get a letter from DWP at around the 3 week mark saying that State Pension, DLA and UC had stopped and THEY didn't owe his estate anything. No mention of US owing THEM anything... until 15 months later.

Are people seriously suggesting that executors of small estates sit on beneficiaries bequests indefinitely ? What right did the executor have to do that . ?

I have asked for a breakdown of the debt to see which benefit has been overpaid and how . I suspect it is the UC . The savings are definitely from the DLA. He used to have a motorbility car and the money from DLA went towards that but he was too unwell to drive for the last 6 or 7 years so the DLA just went into his bank.

I mean sure, give it a go if you enjoy writing letters. It’s quite a large sum though and the legal position is that the estate is liable. She distributed the estate nine months after death and without confirmation from the DWP that no sums were owed. Note to anyone who is an executor - do not do this. Just notifying them of the death is insufficient. They have 12 years to reclaim. That they took 15 months to calculate the liability is nothing im afraid. Before the OP goes down this line she should probably go to the CAB or a solicitor.

This, can't believe that someone who's sole income is state benefits is able to amass up to £16k and still keep getting benefits! (Awaiting the shouts of horror and flaming!)

No you wouldn’t sit on the estate indefinitely but you would not distribute until you had confirmation that no money was owed. You can’t just inform them of the death and assume that even quite a long delay means no money owed.

https://www.clarkewillmott.com/insights/executors-beware-of-dwp-claims-against-an-estate/

From one law firm but make sure you get specific advice on your situation.

I'm afraid this is correct. You should have checked with DWP and tax to check if there are any debts on the estate before you distribute any beneficiaries.

As executor you must have had his bank statements. You should have noted he had benefits paid into his account and checked with DWP and HMRC if any money was owed to them before distribution of estate. The debt must be repaid.

That actually confirms that overpayment arising while the person is still alive needs to be repaid from the estate. @Tenaciousbeyondallthings you are going to need specialist benefits legal advice to confirm exactly what is owed

Whose DLA was it that caused the problem?

If it related to a 'her' why was it paid to him? If it was not his money did he have a beneficial interest in it.

For UC some arrears of benefits can be disregarded for a period of time. If the corporate appointee failed to advise UC of Father's capital, assuming of course they knew about it, then they have questions to answer.

On the other hand if, as executor, you could see that your Father had >£16k and had been receiving UC then should you have made inquiries?

As above, I think you need proper legal advice. CAB may be a good starting point.

Having worked in this area of law briefly, you really need to see a solicitor. I'd do a 1 hour meeting to get their advice.

My understanding is that as executor, the onus is on you, not social services who managed his money during his lifetime. You are likely personally liable for this debt. There might be a way to claw back some money from the other beneficiaries but this is difficult

At what point after death did you inform them, were any payments made covering the period after his death even one day? If so that would need to be returned, you should have been told this this when you reported his death.

Attendance allowance and pip isn't means tested but uc and pension credit is, however if assets were sold to realise the full estate eg a car then they are disregarded. I think you need to speak to a solicitor with experience of this area though but first check the very precise details of what they are claiming. If it is overpaid it is a debt which will need to be repaid however hopefully mostly it can be disregarded

Newham Social Services. Why doesn't this surprise me? They are next to useless..

Newham has 2 local M Ps, one of whom is Stephen Timms, the new Minister for Social Security and Disabilities.

He has always been an MP that actually does constituency work (and got stabbed for his troubles). Recently he has been involved with looking into the scandal of carers allowance overpayments and the impact on carers so he might well take an interest in your Dad's case.

www.carersuk.org/press-releases/carers-uk-responds-to-the-appointment-of-sir-stephen-timms-mp-as-the-dwp-minister-for-social-security-and-disabilities/

This is my understanding as well.

Op, so you have legal cover on your home insurance, you could contact them for advice as a first port of call.

Social services will have Professional Indemnity insurance cover too, which will cover their welfare and benefits advice, management etc. Worse case you cam argue the estate is at a financial loss because of their actions and make a claim against their insurance to cover their debt.

OP, this is a sad story.
When my DM died, the DWP wrote to me within 2 weeks to tell me that I owed them £100ish because she died on a Friday and they paid her attendance allowance on the Monday... They were very quick to write. I paid it straight away.

But...this was a small sum and was dealt with quickly. To all the people berating you for distributing the estate- she did what any of us would do. We expect the systems to work. Tell us Once should be sufficient.

That said, OP, I advise you to see the CAB asap and also contact the MP mentioned above. You did what you thought was correct.

I wouldn't see a solicitor as a first step, don't spend money you don't have to. Phone DWP up, check if this 'ask once' thing is correct, ask them what happens if you ignore further communication from them. You might be worried about nothing. Only then pay to see a solicitor if you need to.

The ask once only applies to funds paid in error following the persons death, basically payments that couldn't be cancelled quickly enough. This overpayment would come under fraud, so fraudently paid due to lack of entitlement whilst alive, this is exempted from the ask once policy.

I've worked in probate law, albeit a while ago.

It matters not that you weren't managing his finances during his lifetime. As executor, you have an obligation to ensure no monies are owed to DWP from the estate before you distribute to the beneficiaries. You didn't do that.

This isn't going to just go away. You need proper legal advice.

Agree with @PinotPony

As the executor, you are required to make sure that all debts are identified before distributing any money. You are entitled to delay distributing the estate for however long you need to do this. As you failed to do this, I'm afraid you are personally liable for any debts outstanding, including this one.

You need to consult a solicitor.

Good luck OP. I would get legal advice.

I think that a lot of people don't realise that an Executor is legally responsible for any debts potentially incurred by a dead person's estate. Did you have Executor's insurance at all? I would get advice but it might be easier (cheaper) to roll over and pay rather than fight, once you have established your position with a solicitor. Good luck.

Ok, good update, thank you.
I would still call and speak to DWP in the first instance and ask them what will happen if the OP ignores.

She can do but they will probably tell her they can take her to court if she doesn’t repay it. It’s quite a big sum and DWP aren’t known for just shrugging and writing things off.

What usually happens is that when an executor uses the Tell Us Once service this will notify whoever you tick to be notified (DWP/HMRC etc).

The initial letters from the DWP usually deal with any overpayments of benefits around the time of death. This is based on timings of those payments (for example payment was made on a Thursday and the person died on the Monday) and these claims are usually for small amounts.

Separately to this there will be an investigation by the DWP into any means-tested benefits. DLA is not means-tested, but Universal Credit is (for example). I am assuming that the DLA built up as savings and, as a result, there is now a claim. However the amount being claimed looks quite high, if he only had around £22k in his estate. Without further information no one can really advise here.

You need legal advice urgently OP. You are personally responsible. If the beneficiaries refuse to pay a share of this you could be up against it.

As long as the deceased person has those funds. Not otherwise.