Advice re Child Contact Please

[MightyDoctor]

Hi,

I've name changed for this one as long time poster.

I'm the grandmother to a 2 year old. She is my sons daughter.

Things have been tricky from the start, and what sometimes gets put as half a dozen of one, 6 of the other has now become completely untenable due the abuse being given BY my son.

I am forging a relationship with - I'll call her DIL for ease of explaining on my part!

Mine and my sons relationship was always rocky - he's abused me too both physically and mentally. He 27 DIL is 22, so quite the age gap with a 2 year old.

I don't know where to start. Son is blocked to me from today and I've advised DIL to block him and not answer private calls or her door.

There is too much to write at the moment.

Long term DIL would like son to see their daughter but fears courts in case he gets 50/50 contact. I've told her this will never happen, he lives in shared accommodation for single homeless young men (I can't have him back due to an incident that happened whilst his sister, then aged 7 was in the house, I don't want him back either)

I think moving forwards, and we're not looking immediately that some sort of order needs putting in place so that DIL is the resident parent, son will see daughter maybe at a contact centre (he keeps threatening to take her away). Again DIL is worried that he'll get some sort of custody, he frightens her like he has frightened me.

Mediation is out the question due to what's happened.

She would still like him to be part of their daughters life, as would I.
It won't happen until he sought and followed through on medical help. My GP is a wonder, has made space available him at short notice and he hasn't turned up.

He doesn't take medication prescribed.

Obviously it's going to be some time, but how do help DIL get those building blocks in place so that he is almost legally told what to do before he can see her.

I hope that makes sense! It's very stressful and upsetting.

Thank you for any information in advance. I think I'll go to bed now!

Please only posts with advice, I could slag my son off all day long, I don't need strangers kicking me when I'm down.

Thank you.

Insert any missing words as appropriate!

Bumping before bed.

Zonk!

I think you probably need to make it clear to DIL that you will support HER in court (should it come to this) and let her know that your DS is not a safe person to be around DGD. Honestly, the best possible solution is for YOU to be supporting DIL and for him to be out of the picture entirely.

This is absolutely what we are doing right now.

Sorry, I meant to convey that in the OP.

But I don't where we start with court etc.

I'm posting here to help and support her, I just know where to start.

Thank you though, youve worded exactly what I am trying to achieve.

And DIL absolutely knows it her and granddaughters welfare at the forefront of anything I do. We've forged a close relationship now, and my she needed me to tell her that it wasn't her, but she kept son involved it wasn't my place at the time.

I do need some sleep, I've got blummin toothache!

But, in short it's me, DIL and Grandaughter as a team, unit if you like, just trying to get her peace of mind and clarity.

I've witnessed son with DGD many many many times.

He is not a danger to her at all!

But something needs to be put in place with rules, times, where etc etc

That's what I need help with to help DIL with.

I can't write all the months he looked after DGD whilst DIL worked - feeding, playing, nappies, going to soft play. Bringing her here (he's not always a monster)

He's a good dad,

But how do we get some times and certain restrictions (certain friends avoided) in place?
How do I help her. The relationship has ittrevbly broken down.

Bloody hell, it's stressful.

DIL needs set times and certain rules in place. I am supporting her completely.

I just need to know where to start, please.

Legal advice please, not opinions.

I'm not sure why she's promoting contact at the moment given that you've said he shouldn't have contact until he's sorted out his mental health and that he didn't bother turning up at the GP.
Your DIL could apply to court for a child arrangements order. That would set out that the child lives with her, so if he abducted him then she could apply to court to have him returned more easily. And she could take him on holiday without needing his permission. BUT it also opens up avenues to him to argue for the contact that he wants and he has a chance of getting it. Honestly in her situation I wouldn't go anywhere near court unless he applies. I would simply stop all contact until he can prove he's made the changes. The child will get as much benefit from spending time with you (in terms of being connected to his paternal family) as he would from seeing his father and will be a lot safer and happier if he sees you rather than him.

You son, as you have recognised, is a perpetrator of domestic abuse (against both his ex partner, and you).

He poses a risk to the child, as he poses a risk to the mother.

Child contact is not about what you, or your DIL wish. It should always be child centred, looking at the safety and best interests of the child.

Legally re child contact (in England) ideally your DIL needs a Residency Order in place to prevent him from removing the child from her care. If he does so, and she has the Order, the child will be located and returned by the police. Without this Order, she would have to go to the Court to request this (unless she could evidence immediate harm posed to child).

Contact needs to be formalised and legally agreed. Contact centres are expensive, and the onus is on the non resident - ‘risk’ parent - to pay.

This would be a Court Order. All parties need to commit to adhering to this.

Your DIL could likely obtain Legal Aid as a victim of Domestic Abuse to go to Court. She would need to evidence this, through contacting the Police or local Domestic Abuse support. Alternatively, she could pay to bring this to Court and represent herself.

Standard advice for victims of DA is to wait for the perpetrator to initiate proceedings. Most do not. Most also do not adhere to agreements. Many use the process as a method of control.

There are safeguarding concerns here. Social Care may be instructed to assess risk. CAFCASS may also be instructed, to represent the voice of the child and their needs.

To reiterate: you and your DIL need to consider the risk posed to you, your DIL, and the child. And any contact needs to be in the best interests of the child.

Thank you.

I'm trying to take your post in step by step, but the first thing I will look in to is getting her a residency order.

There's a lot to take on there, but do you agree that, that is the first step?

Thank you.

I'll look in to this. I may refer back to you - I was going to say, in the morning! Maybe Sunday at this rate!

Crikey, so now it's called a 'child arrangement order' and that needs to go to court too...?

Okay, I can see where we will be going with this and I'll help her apply online and get help to cover costs due to low income.

No mediation due to DA.

That will be the first step thank you.

When you say he's "not always a monster" and that there was an incident with his sister when she was 7 that means he can't be at home, this suggests even more than DA and other issues are at play here.

He might have flashes of being a "good dad" and spending time with his child, but this sounds more complex than merely introducing some rules you'd like him to follow for contact etc.

You sound lovely by the way and I imagine this is a very upsetting situation to be in for you.

But that's taking into account when child spends time with other parent etc.

At the moment she just wants to know that if he a dickhead and takes her (he won't get far) that DGD will be returned home to her without any of this parental responsibility nonsense.

I'm over tired now, I will be back either later or tomorrow, I shall be seeing DIL and GDG in the week - I don't know who GDG is, that's a whole new issue. Night!

It is very upsetting.

I want it known though that he has never once hurt or shouted at his little sister. She heard him abusing me.

There's too much to write, nobody could ever understand the complete truth, because, I can't write a novel.

With respect, I particularly asked twice for legal advice and not opinions. Thank you though.

I just can't be here all night trying to explain things. Explain, not justify.

Thank you. Goodnight!

Blummin eck! Just seen the time, good job daughter is at her Dad's!

Ps daughter is 16 now to give a time frame.

Which makes it even worse.

He has been given so much help and support.

I'm going to take myself off for a cry now.

I'm not sleeping, who am I trying to kid. Insomnia at the best of times!

I just wanted that there has been plenty of police involvement, thus CS - DIL is a remarkable young lady, DG is always clean, clothes spotless, well fed. Always a good organised baby bag for out and about, they go playgroups and libraries for activities.

They've been on the radar for sure, but quickly been declared okay. Which, whilst good, didn't give her any support really.
Such is the system.

@ThankGodForDancingFruit
Legally re child contact (in England) ideally your DIL needs a Residency Order in place to prevent him from removing the child from her care. If he does so, and she has the Order, the child will be located and returned by the police. Without this Order, she would have to go to the Court to request this (unless she could evidence immediate harm posed to child).

I appreciate you are giving advice from a good place but this is very out of date. Residence orders were done away with a long time ago. The order is a child arrangements order. If a child is removed from their main carer when a CAO is in place the police will consider whether they will return them on a case by case basis. If the CAO specifies contact with the NRP and he/she has just failed to return them the police probably won't go and get them - the RP will still have to go to court to enforce the order.

Get some free legal advice and then make an application to court yourself. You can do the ‘donkey work’ yourself if form filling. Could be worth having a solicitor represent you on the actual court hearing. Also though be mindful that it’s not just one hearing. All depends on your financial situation. However if there has been any domestic abuse with the girlfriend and son and there is a record of it, she may get legal aid. CAFCASS will no doubt get involved where these things can be put in place.

If he's no danger to his dd there's no need for a contact centre. Maybe ask him what contact woukd work for him and go from there, obviously his living situation at present would exclude overnights.

The problem with going to court is that you don't just get given what you ask for. You're saying he's no danger to the baby but at the same time he needs to have rules and be in a contact centre. That's not going to happen if he's not a risk to the baby. He will have the right to put his case to the court too.

It isn't clear from your posts whether he has parental responsibility. I think, from the way you have worded your post, that your DIL has never been married to your son. If that is the case, he only has PR if he is named on the birth certificate. Having said that, if he wants PR he is unlikely to have any problems getting it.

As others have indicated, the only way to get what you want and for it to be legally binding is for your DIL to go to court and get a Child Arrangements Order. This should state that the child is to live with her and set out what is to happen regarding contact. However, your DIL cannot control who your granddaughter comes into contact with while she is in his care unless she can show that there is a genuine safeguarding risk.

As things stand, with no court orders in place, your DIL can do whatever she wants regarding contact. It might be better to keep it like that and let him go to court if he wants to change things. However, if there is a genuine risk that he might try to take your granddaughter, it would be better to get a CAO in place as soon as possible.

Note that, if he has PR and there are no court orders in place, anyone taking your granddaughter out of the country (you, your DIL or anyone else) needs his consent to do so. If your DIL gets a CAO saying that your granddaughter lives with her, she will be able to take her out of the country for up to one month without needing his consent.

Absolutley, apologies OP for the wrong terminology - this is why I shouldn’t comment in the middle of the night.

I have heard of recent situations in my line of work - safeguarding - where the Police have collected children without the parent needing to return to Court. But the situation still remains that any contact without an order in place presents the risk of the child not being returned.