Legal processes don’t work : or perhaps just work for solicitors?

[NamechangedforET]

I have brought a claim against my employers which is due to be heard in mid July. We are meant to be exchanging witness statements today. Their solicitors have asked to extend the deadline as they have more documents they want to disclose. They asked for a further two weeks : I suggested one week as I need time to consider their statements and prepare for the tribunal. Today they have informed me that they have more than 200 documents they want to disclose. How is that reasonable? I am a litigant in person, work full time and am disabled. How can I possibly deal with that? I have emailed the Court for advice (they gave today’s date in the Case Management Orders). Just utterly fed up : it’s impossible. How can we claim to have a fair and just legal system when it’s acceptable for solicitors to behave like this?

Thanks . My home insurance doesnt cover legal expenses : I know I would have to pay. Would a barrister be willing to do the Skelton? Would it be thousands or tens of thousands. I think the bundle(s) would be about 700 pages. Mostly policy documents

could chatgpt help ? @NamechangedforET

I wouldn’t have a clue where to start lol

https://chatgpt.com

basically sign up, or log in via google login then start asking it questions or whatever you want it to write and it helps, obviously reread it all before you use any of the info it generates

or i can ask it an example question for you ?

A solicitor where I am (south east regions) in this area would be around £400/h including VAT. Say 1h meeting/tel call to take instructions, 10h? to review 700 pages (depends how dense they are, if all of them need reviewing), you're looking at about £4,400.

• whatever it is you then want them to actually do!!

It might be that you could just arrange a 30 min meeting & have them review a few key docs to provide you with advice on how to do it yourself. Call a local firm & enquire xx

Thank you. Wow that will really add up and quickly.

Could I just as them to look at the witness statements and come up with some questions? Not sure t would be possible or much cheaper?

Gosh it’s almost impossible to do this as a LiP. So depressing: I had always thought we had a fair legal system but feels so far from it. How can you possibly compete? I didn’t even know I had to do a skeletal argument. Starting to feel like employers can do anything and even if they break the law unless you have deep pockets forget it. Is that unfair? Just my experience?

@NamechangedforET yes, you probably can. Of course the less they review, the more limited their advice can be, but I think it's worth asking them what's possible.

I completely agree with you but don't know what the solution is.
The legal system is very complex & rightly so, as it tries to account for many eventualities. I don't think it'd be right to dumb down the system too much.

That means we need competent, qualified & highly trained lawyers. Who are necessarily going to be expensive.

Then there is the question of who should pay for these lawyers. I don't see much appetite for increasing legal aid.

So while I agree, it's hard to know how to improve things for litigants in person!

i made a wrong reply response,

Apologies for anther stupid question if there are two bundles how should I refer to them in the witness statement? Page x of the Respondents Bundle and page y of my bundle ?

I think at this stage it will be too late and too expensive to appoint a barrister to assist

I know you don't want to delay, but the stress this is causing you right now is not good for you. I think I would reconsider a delay

I would label the bundles A and B (or similar), and in your opening reference them, so Respondents Bundle will be referred to as A and Your Bundle will be referred to as B

If you want to meet the deadline, I would present the original packs you were provided with and reference those pages, adding a disclaimer that the numbering will need to change once you receive the final information

If your case is in London or the South East, try FRU (pro bono) - they only take referrals from agencies. See here for the list:

www.thefru.org.uk/get-advice/list-of-agencies

Thanks: I tried to get pro bono help but , after taking considerable time applying, they said they only help with cases that are three days or under.

All the solicitors and barristers I have approached for help have said that they can’t help: say the case is complex (it will cost over £4k for them to just read in): they could however represent me but the cost would be at least 20k. It’s a joke. I appreciate that they are professionals and don’t dispute their value/hourly rate but how are people who don’t have such sums of money lying around meant to use the legal system/ get justice? Or is that only for the very wealthy? How is it meant to work : being a litigant in person seems almost impossible. Or am I missing something?

Don't worry about referring to page numbers. You can use a description. Ie. Email dated 5th may 2023 sent from me to x.

Once bundles are finalised you can number for yourself and say to the tribunal if there are exhibits that are not clear I can now assist you with page numbers.

So tonight I finally received the hard copy of their bundle. The electronic version they sent wouldn’t download - so no idea how I am meant to get a copy to my witnesses. Any thoughts??

The pagination is wrong and different to previous versions of their bundle they have sent me. Completely unnecessary. I will now have to re do all the bundle references in my witness statement as well as prepare my own bundle when I have finished checking what they have and have not included (they wouldn’t provide me with a list of what they won’t include).

So less than two weeks before the hearing, the bundle and witness statements are still not complete. I have written to the tribunal twice , once nearly three weeks ago, but had no reply. I have called repeatedly but the tribunal don’t answer , the line just cuts off.

It all feels incompetent and amateur but perhaps that is deliberate? The solicitors are , I am told, a major firm (headquarters in Bristol although it’s their London office working with me). They must have sufficient resource and experience to do this properly so I can only assume this is all deliberate. I do feel it is very underhand and unnecessary. Is this normal? Has anyone else experienced anything like this and if so what did you do? I had naively thought that the Justice system was fair. It feels so far from it….

I'm not surprised that you haven't had any response from the tribunal. Your letters would have been opened by the tribunal staff. They aren't allowed to make any decisions or offer legal advice. However, when you get to the hearing you need to make it clear that your attempts to prepare as a litigant in person have been severely hampered by the other side's failure to comply with the case management order and other behaviour which appears to you to be a deliberate attempt to undermine your ability to present your case. Ask the tribunal to strike out their defence.

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply.

I received an email from the Judge this afternoon. He has given an order that we must exchange witness statements within 48 hours. Their solicitors have asked for a two hour slot tomorrow to do this in. I thought we simply emailed them over at the same time. Have I missed something? I have read lots of material on the internet/ bought books but can’t see anything different. It just seems to say we should exchange at the same time : not sure why it would take so long?

I have done my own bundle (of papers they wouldn’t put in the bundle). Was going to send this tonight to be helpful. As they have seen it all before I can’t see any disadvantages.

Sorry for asking such stupid questions: it will all be over soon. Thank goodness!

It sounds like they are trying to arrange something akin to simultaneous exchange. This is intended to ensure that neither side gets to see the other side's witness statements before submitting their own. If you were represented, they would contact your lawyer and arrange things so that both sides pressed send simultaneously. I may be wrong, but I suspect that they are offering a two-hour slot in an attempt to make it easier for you.

Unfortunately we are at a bit of a stand off . We have agreed to exchange witness statements two hours before the court deadline. I was ready to press send but they didn’t so I didn’t. They have said that they won’t send theirs until they have mine: that the courts say I should let them have mine first (the order doesn’t say that but may be in a law or somewhere else? ).

They have now proposed to send me theirs as password-protected documents and upon receipt of my statements, say they will confirm the password. All seems totally ridiculous. Unfortunately given how they have managed disclosure and the bundles (not forgetting the IT glitches they have experienced!) I am minded just to go with the time given by the judge : unless you think that is unreasonable/there is a requirement for me to let them have the statement first? I want to be helpful but also not stupid?

The absurdity carries on. I have sent my witness statement. They have sent me theirs (password protected) so I can’t access and now say they are in meetings all day. The court said we need to exchange by 2pm . I don’t know why they are allowed to play such games.

Nearly an hour after the Judge said we should exchange I still can’t access their witness statement as it’s password protected. Although they have mine. How is this fair?

This is just awful. others will know better than me but I wonder if this is grounds for an ajournment. They're clearly deliberately playing silly beggars, fulfilling the 'letter' of the court order but not the 'spirit' ('yeah, we've sent them in the time frame, you just can't open them'). Not acting in good faith at all.

They really shouldn't be doing this. Do bring all this to the tribunal's attention and ask them to strike out your ex-employer's case.

To be honest, I'd accept them sending theirs password protected & password on receipt of yours. I don't think it helps either side to play games!!

Agree re checking all your insurance policies to check you don't happen to have some legal insurance.

Some Employee Assistance Programmes also have legal help - which can be used for all sorts of things.

You could try the Bar Pro Bono Unit to see if you can get a Direct Access Barrister.

Some universities and law schools also have free assistance programmes. They won't be as good as paying for someone qualified but they may be some assistance, and certainly the law school clinics rather than the undergraduate ones may be in a position to help you work out what to ask etc.

Some CABs have solicitors who come in one day a week for specific advice clinics, and some of them will also support with representation. It's worth finding out what's available to you locally.

Depending on the nature of your work or of your claim, there may be other organisations that can assist (such as any trade union you are a paid up member of).

I have sent you a PM with some bits in.