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Artificial Intelligence Nightmare

52 replies

ArtificialIntelligenceNightmare · 02/05/2024 14:20

I awoke early yesterday morning to police at my front door with a search warrant. After getting over the absolute horror of this, they explained DS20 had been arrested whilst driving to work on suspicion of robbery and they needed to search his bedroom and possibly other areas of the house for evidence. They would not give me any further details other than showing the relevant documentation for the search. They were polite and respectful under the circumstances and understood my distress and confusion. I watched them throughout the search and managed to ascertain they were looking for a small single item. It was particularly upsetting as my DD16 was getting ready for school and is in the midst of GCSE stress. She shares the bedroom with her brother (not ideal but DS spends alot of time at his girlfriends and we couldn't get planning permission for a loft conversion and for various reasons can't move house) so it was in effect it was her bedroom that was searched. They also searched other specific areas of the house including our (clean) laundry basket but not the dirty one, all our coats and jackets in the hallway (but not in our bedroom) and the recycling bins. They didn't find what they were looking for and left saying DS20 will be interviewed in the next 24 hours and possibly released at which point we would find out what this was all about.

Fast forward several frantic hours and I get a call from the police saying DS20 is allowed a 5 min call with me. The line was really bad (plus DS has ADHD and finds communication difficult) but I managed to glean from DS that the police are claiming that he was identified as a suspect in a robbery of a £200k watch from a man standing outside a Central London hotel. DS sounded terrified and wanted me to come to the police station to help sort this out. I managed to get a few more details, including the date, time and location of the crime before the call cut out. I dash to the police station which was miles away and go through a process of explaining DS's ADHD challenges with communication and executive functioning (after initially being told that as DS is able to drive a car he can't possibly have ADHD or have any challenges because of it - grrrr) and am eventually allowed to be with DS for the solicitor consultation and police interview.

This is when I get to hear what has happened.

DS was identified as a suspect using AI. They uploaded the facial image of the man committing the robbery from CCTV to a database which then uses cameras throughout London to scan the faces of people passing by to see if they score a match. My son has been driving past the same traffic camera around the same on his way to work for the last month and his image was 'matched' to the robber. That morning, police had lain in wait for him and stopped and arrested him. (I did question why they didn't just identify his address from the car number plate and find DS that way and they didn't know). The actual arrest was quite dramatic and traumatic for my son and they used normal cars with flashing lights (not police cars). He's a new driver and wasn't sure if it was actually the police at first but stopped straight away and co-operated fully. The solicitor had viewed the CCTV footage of the crime and assured me and DS that he could clearly see that the image was not DS so it would more than likely be a perfunctory interview which would end in his release.

We then have the interview where the police officer shows us the CCTV footage of the crime. There were 5 men in a gang surrounding the victim. The victim hands over the watch and the 5 men run off. The 5 men's faces are mostly visible but it's night-time so its not very clear but none of them look like my son - most notably they are a different race. My son is mixed race (White/Black African) and they were white possibly Arab or Mediterranean in origin in my eyes. The solicitor then asks the police officer to identify which one of the 5 men was identified as DS. He replays the footage and points out one particularly tall man with a moustache wearing a distinctive jacket. I could see a very rudimentary resemblance to my son, e.g. the moustache and perhaps the nose but what stood out was the man in the footage is white and my son isn't and has (to me anyway) very black African feature and complexion. My son obviously says that is not him and he was not there at the time. He was asked if he has evidence of where he was at the time of the crime. It was a work day and my son does very manual work so is often in bed asleep by 10pm as he is usually exhausted and then leaves for work before 7am. We can't conclusively evidence that other than the family saying he was at home or at his girlfriend's home asleep in bed. DS gives his consent for his phone to be examined for its location at that time. We think that's the end of it and are asked to wait for a bit whilst the police officer does the paperwork.

It turns out that whilst the interviewing police officer agreed that the footage did not show my son, his line manager thought there was enough of a resemblance to warrant further investigation. This meant my son was released on conditional bail whilst the police make further enquiries. They have seized his phone which he also uses for his self-employed work and has been given a date in July to re-attend the police station.

I'm in literal shock for various reasons. I can't believe that AI is being used in this way and that this has happened to us. My daughter is worried sick and feels violated from the search of her bedroom. They went through all her things including underwear. All her school books and study notes were moved and out of place. She keeps finding things in the wrong place. My son is angry and worried. He had just become self-employed and was building his business but now can't do that because he doesn't have his phone. I think we can replace it and get the contacts back but not sure how yet. He's lost at least a day's pay from the arrest. I took time off work yesterday as did my partner because of the search and the time needed to sort everything out. I don't know what to do now or if there is anything I can do considering the police are making further enquiries. Part of me knows that once the phone is looked at they will see that he was at home and no where near the crime location. But then how much faith do they put in the facial recognition software? I'm white, my partner is black and our children are mixed-race and we have a lot of multi-cultural friends of all ethnicities. We are attuned to the differences in races, colour etc but yesterday showed me that someone can view a face and see something completely different. I saw a 'white' man in the footage or at least a different ethnicity to my son as did the solicitor and interviewing officer but the officer's line manager saw someone resembling my son and the AI also matched the image to my son's face.

I don't think I was aware that the Met police are using AI in this way but I'm getting increasingly more angry, worried, stressed - literally all the emotions you can imagine. Does anyone else think this is scary and does anyone have any advice on what to do next (other than just wait months and months for the investigation to conclude and hope that the phone location clears him)?

OP posts:
Ozanj · 02/05/2024 14:27

Take legal action: this particular software wasn’t tested enough with people of colour and shouldn’t have been used. The Met chose to do so anyway.

ArtificialIntelligenceNightmare · 02/05/2024 14:36

Ozanj · 02/05/2024 14:27

Take legal action: this particular software wasn’t tested enough with people of colour and shouldn’t have been used. The Met chose to do so anyway.

That's what I'm thinking now I've googled endlessly but what does taking legal action mean? Do I pay a solicitor to take up the case separately to the assigned duty solicitor? And what could the potential outcomes be?

OP posts:
Hugosmaid · 02/05/2024 14:39

That’s sounds ridiculous and I’m sure any good lawyer will get that charge thrown out. Your son will be able to prove where he was at the time of the robbery.

However it’s really not on that your 16 year old dd is having to share a bed room with her 20 year old brother. That needs sorting ASAP

Codlingmoths · 02/05/2024 14:48

I guess one legal action avenue is the met police have software that is badly trained on race, targeting black people when looking for white suspects. This would be large scale discrimination.
but, it will be expensive. If your 20yo son shares a room with your daughter I assume money is tight. Try contacting a few journalists- Google for reputable journos who have written on inherent bias in the ai large language model training sets? There should be public interest in a clear example of this in no less a body than the police. I’d ask them to point you to a lawyer too, an initial discussion should tell you whether there is a case.
if it looks for a second like the case isn’t going to be dismissed of course, throw your money at it.

Starbugg · 02/05/2024 14:49

I don’t often say this but this is one where you should think about speaking to the press.

PickledPurplePickle · 02/05/2024 14:57

I agree with everyone else, speak to the press and get this out there

The situation with a 20 year old man sharing a room with a 16 year old child needs sorting out ASAP, this is a big worry

murasaki · 02/05/2024 15:01

It's not good at picking out black faces at all as I understand it. Wasn't it used at the Notting Hill Festival with very dodgy results? I'd definitely be querying this as others say and possibly contacting journalists, it sounds awful.

murasaki · 02/05/2024 15:03

Somebody like Gary Younge (guardian, not sure if he's still there) might be a good shout.

User7947433 · 02/05/2024 15:06

What really jumps out from the story is purely the fact that police are allowed to arrest, detain and search a home based on a suspected resemblance on a photo??? It feels less about race or AI but more like a total breakdown in protocol for the evidence needed to arrest someone. Surely they need at least one additional piece of hard evidence such as a license plate, phone location, message, witness or name that corroborates with the crime scene?

Don‘t know much about law but there must be se guideline on what needs to be in place before a home search warrant is granted.

ThePensivePig · 02/05/2024 15:14

This is horrific and yes, very worrying. Your poor son and how awful for the whole family. My 17 year old son was arrested at gunpoint recently on the flimsiest of evidence, so I understand how horrendous it feels. He was innocent too and ultimately all charges were dropped. I agree with others about going to the press. It's one of those scenarios where I think 'surely that can't be right?' but somehow it is. I hope everything works out ok for you all.

ArtificialIntelligenceNightmare · 02/05/2024 15:21

PickledPurplePickle · 02/05/2024 14:57

I agree with everyone else, speak to the press and get this out there

The situation with a 20 year old man sharing a room with a 16 year old child needs sorting out ASAP, this is a big worry

Its really not an issue, DS is on the verge of moving in with his girlfriend so is hardly ever at home. Please don't focus on this as a problem - we live in a conservation area in London and couldn't get planning permission for an extension that would have solved this (even though others have). We make the situation work for us and DD is happy with the set up apart from what's just happened.

OP posts:
Begsthequestion · 02/05/2024 15:29

https://www.bindmans.com/legal-services/individual/actions-against-police-and-state/

The above is a solicitors called Bindmans that has taken on many cases against the police before.

They are London based but if you're not, they can hopefully still advise and recommend a firm in your area.

Sorry you've all been put through this and I hope you can get justice soon.

Actions against Police and State | Bindmans

Our specialist Actions against Police and State solicitors provide individuals with legal advice relating to police law and civil actions.

https://www.bindmans.com/legal-services/individual/actions-against-police-and-state

Begsthequestion · 02/05/2024 15:33

ThePensivePig · 02/05/2024 15:14

This is horrific and yes, very worrying. Your poor son and how awful for the whole family. My 17 year old son was arrested at gunpoint recently on the flimsiest of evidence, so I understand how horrendous it feels. He was innocent too and ultimately all charges were dropped. I agree with others about going to the press. It's one of those scenarios where I think 'surely that can't be right?' but somehow it is. I hope everything works out ok for you all.

That sounds awful. You likely have grounds to sue for wrongful arrest of a child. The firm below specialise in civil claims against unfair policing:

https://www.bindmans.com/legal-services/individual/actions-against-police-and-state/

Actions against Police and State | Bindmans

Our specialist Actions against Police and State solicitors provide individuals with legal advice relating to police law and civil actions.

https://www.bindmans.com/legal-services/individual/actions-against-police-and-state

ArtificialIntelligenceNightmare · 02/05/2024 15:35

User7947433 · 02/05/2024 15:06

What really jumps out from the story is purely the fact that police are allowed to arrest, detain and search a home based on a suspected resemblance on a photo??? It feels less about race or AI but more like a total breakdown in protocol for the evidence needed to arrest someone. Surely they need at least one additional piece of hard evidence such as a license plate, phone location, message, witness or name that corroborates with the crime scene?

Don‘t know much about law but there must be se guideline on what needs to be in place before a home search warrant is granted.

I know - I kept sense-checking the whole thing but its played out like a bad nightmare. The police who searched the house said they had nothing to do with the arrest or crime and were just looking for the stolen item (which turned out to be a £200k watch) or any other evidence (which was probably the distinctive jacket worn in the footage as they were very interested in our outerwear).

The interviewing police officer said he wasn't in charge of the investigation and couldn't answer our questions about how they stopped my son but said I was welcome to make a complaint online. He was actually quite apologetic afterwards and said its the first time he's had to do 'one of these'. The duty solicitor also hadn't come across this before so it all sounded a bit experimental.

OP posts:
Soigneur · 02/05/2024 15:35

User7947433 · 02/05/2024 15:06

What really jumps out from the story is purely the fact that police are allowed to arrest, detain and search a home based on a suspected resemblance on a photo??? It feels less about race or AI but more like a total breakdown in protocol for the evidence needed to arrest someone. Surely they need at least one additional piece of hard evidence such as a license plate, phone location, message, witness or name that corroborates with the crime scene?

Don‘t know much about law but there must be se guideline on what needs to be in place before a home search warrant is granted.

All they need is reasonable suspicion to arrest. Ditto to get a search warrant - search warrants are about gathering evidence, it would be a bit odd to require evidence before it has been gathered.

fairydust11 · 02/05/2024 15:36

Starbugg · 02/05/2024 14:49

I don’t often say this but this is one where you should think about speaking to the press.

Completely agree. Sounds horrific OP.

Investigative journalists will probably bite your hand off for this story, especially as it involves the met police and ai.

prh47bridge · 02/05/2024 15:37

Begsthequestion · 02/05/2024 15:33

That sounds awful. You likely have grounds to sue for wrongful arrest of a child. The firm below specialise in civil claims against unfair policing:

https://www.bindmans.com/legal-services/individual/actions-against-police-and-state/

OP's son is 20. He is not a child. Even if he was, there is no specific offence of wrongful arrest of a child. And it is not wrongful arrest if the police had a warrant or reasonably believed that OP's son had been involved in an offence. What is an issue is the police disrupting his life to this extent on such flimsy evidence.

Begsthequestion · 02/05/2024 15:41

prh47bridge · 02/05/2024 15:37

OP's son is 20. He is not a child. Even if he was, there is no specific offence of wrongful arrest of a child. And it is not wrongful arrest if the police had a warrant or reasonably believed that OP's son had been involved in an offence. What is an issue is the police disrupting his life to this extent on such flimsy evidence.

The poster I replied to with that message says her 17 year old was recently arrested at gun point.

Please read posts properly before you waste everyone's time.

TobaccoFlower · 02/05/2024 15:42

It's scandalous if mixed race people are getting arrested because the tools the police are using haven't been tested properly.

Freakinfraser · 02/05/2024 15:45

Begsthequestion · 02/05/2024 15:33

That sounds awful. You likely have grounds to sue for wrongful arrest of a child. The firm below specialise in civil claims against unfair policing:

https://www.bindmans.com/legal-services/individual/actions-against-police-and-state/

He’s a grown man, and they are allowed to act based on suspicion, if they weren’t no one would be arrested.

on saying that op, can he really not evidence where he was at the time?

StarlightLime · 02/05/2024 15:46

Begsthequestion · 02/05/2024 15:41

The poster I replied to with that message says her 17 year old was recently arrested at gun point.

Please read posts properly before you waste everyone's time.

That posts applies equally well to the 17 year old's situation.
You're hardly best placed to accuse anyone of wasting people's time, with your rather limited understanding.

prh47bridge · 02/05/2024 15:47

Begsthequestion · 02/05/2024 15:41

The poster I replied to with that message says her 17 year old was recently arrested at gun point.

Please read posts properly before you waste everyone's time.

Apologies for overlooking that. However, as I say, there is no specific offence of wrongful arrest of a child, and it is not wrongful arrest if the police had a warrant or reasonably believed that the 17-year-old had been involved in an offence. So the main thrust of my post still applies.

Begsthequestion · 02/05/2024 15:51

prh47bridge · 02/05/2024 15:47

Apologies for overlooking that. However, as I say, there is no specific offence of wrongful arrest of a child, and it is not wrongful arrest if the police had a warrant or reasonably believed that the 17-year-old had been involved in an offence. So the main thrust of my post still applies.

When a civil claim is made then the circumstances are taken into account.

The people who have been affected by unjust policing need to speak to qualified, experienced solicitors on the matter.

I posted a link to qualified, experienced solicitors.

This is not a debate I'm going to have on here, like it's a thread about what you should have for dinner.

These are people's lives and traumatic experiences being discussed.

I'm going post the link one last time for anyone on here who feels like they have been treated unfairly by the police: https://www.bindmans.com/legal-services/individual/actions-against-police-and-state/

Good luck op x

Actions against Police and State | Bindmans

Our specialist Actions against Police and State solicitors provide individuals with legal advice relating to police law and civil actions.

https://www.bindmans.com/legal-services/individual/actions-against-police-and-state

RickyGervaislovesdogs · 02/05/2024 15:52

fairydust11 · 02/05/2024 15:36

Completely agree. Sounds horrific OP.

Investigative journalists will probably bite your hand off for this story, especially as it involves the met police and ai.

^This.

Sounds Horrendous OP, sorry this happened to you all.

ncforuchelp · 02/05/2024 15:56

Absolutely press. I'd usually say steer clear but this is a prime opportunity to shake up some very dodgy sounding policing.

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