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Artificial Intelligence Nightmare

52 replies

ArtificialIntelligenceNightmare · 02/05/2024 14:20

I awoke early yesterday morning to police at my front door with a search warrant. After getting over the absolute horror of this, they explained DS20 had been arrested whilst driving to work on suspicion of robbery and they needed to search his bedroom and possibly other areas of the house for evidence. They would not give me any further details other than showing the relevant documentation for the search. They were polite and respectful under the circumstances and understood my distress and confusion. I watched them throughout the search and managed to ascertain they were looking for a small single item. It was particularly upsetting as my DD16 was getting ready for school and is in the midst of GCSE stress. She shares the bedroom with her brother (not ideal but DS spends alot of time at his girlfriends and we couldn't get planning permission for a loft conversion and for various reasons can't move house) so it was in effect it was her bedroom that was searched. They also searched other specific areas of the house including our (clean) laundry basket but not the dirty one, all our coats and jackets in the hallway (but not in our bedroom) and the recycling bins. They didn't find what they were looking for and left saying DS20 will be interviewed in the next 24 hours and possibly released at which point we would find out what this was all about.

Fast forward several frantic hours and I get a call from the police saying DS20 is allowed a 5 min call with me. The line was really bad (plus DS has ADHD and finds communication difficult) but I managed to glean from DS that the police are claiming that he was identified as a suspect in a robbery of a £200k watch from a man standing outside a Central London hotel. DS sounded terrified and wanted me to come to the police station to help sort this out. I managed to get a few more details, including the date, time and location of the crime before the call cut out. I dash to the police station which was miles away and go through a process of explaining DS's ADHD challenges with communication and executive functioning (after initially being told that as DS is able to drive a car he can't possibly have ADHD or have any challenges because of it - grrrr) and am eventually allowed to be with DS for the solicitor consultation and police interview.

This is when I get to hear what has happened.

DS was identified as a suspect using AI. They uploaded the facial image of the man committing the robbery from CCTV to a database which then uses cameras throughout London to scan the faces of people passing by to see if they score a match. My son has been driving past the same traffic camera around the same on his way to work for the last month and his image was 'matched' to the robber. That morning, police had lain in wait for him and stopped and arrested him. (I did question why they didn't just identify his address from the car number plate and find DS that way and they didn't know). The actual arrest was quite dramatic and traumatic for my son and they used normal cars with flashing lights (not police cars). He's a new driver and wasn't sure if it was actually the police at first but stopped straight away and co-operated fully. The solicitor had viewed the CCTV footage of the crime and assured me and DS that he could clearly see that the image was not DS so it would more than likely be a perfunctory interview which would end in his release.

We then have the interview where the police officer shows us the CCTV footage of the crime. There were 5 men in a gang surrounding the victim. The victim hands over the watch and the 5 men run off. The 5 men's faces are mostly visible but it's night-time so its not very clear but none of them look like my son - most notably they are a different race. My son is mixed race (White/Black African) and they were white possibly Arab or Mediterranean in origin in my eyes. The solicitor then asks the police officer to identify which one of the 5 men was identified as DS. He replays the footage and points out one particularly tall man with a moustache wearing a distinctive jacket. I could see a very rudimentary resemblance to my son, e.g. the moustache and perhaps the nose but what stood out was the man in the footage is white and my son isn't and has (to me anyway) very black African feature and complexion. My son obviously says that is not him and he was not there at the time. He was asked if he has evidence of where he was at the time of the crime. It was a work day and my son does very manual work so is often in bed asleep by 10pm as he is usually exhausted and then leaves for work before 7am. We can't conclusively evidence that other than the family saying he was at home or at his girlfriend's home asleep in bed. DS gives his consent for his phone to be examined for its location at that time. We think that's the end of it and are asked to wait for a bit whilst the police officer does the paperwork.

It turns out that whilst the interviewing police officer agreed that the footage did not show my son, his line manager thought there was enough of a resemblance to warrant further investigation. This meant my son was released on conditional bail whilst the police make further enquiries. They have seized his phone which he also uses for his self-employed work and has been given a date in July to re-attend the police station.

I'm in literal shock for various reasons. I can't believe that AI is being used in this way and that this has happened to us. My daughter is worried sick and feels violated from the search of her bedroom. They went through all her things including underwear. All her school books and study notes were moved and out of place. She keeps finding things in the wrong place. My son is angry and worried. He had just become self-employed and was building his business but now can't do that because he doesn't have his phone. I think we can replace it and get the contacts back but not sure how yet. He's lost at least a day's pay from the arrest. I took time off work yesterday as did my partner because of the search and the time needed to sort everything out. I don't know what to do now or if there is anything I can do considering the police are making further enquiries. Part of me knows that once the phone is looked at they will see that he was at home and no where near the crime location. But then how much faith do they put in the facial recognition software? I'm white, my partner is black and our children are mixed-race and we have a lot of multi-cultural friends of all ethnicities. We are attuned to the differences in races, colour etc but yesterday showed me that someone can view a face and see something completely different. I saw a 'white' man in the footage or at least a different ethnicity to my son as did the solicitor and interviewing officer but the officer's line manager saw someone resembling my son and the AI also matched the image to my son's face.

I don't think I was aware that the Met police are using AI in this way but I'm getting increasingly more angry, worried, stressed - literally all the emotions you can imagine. Does anyone else think this is scary and does anyone have any advice on what to do next (other than just wait months and months for the investigation to conclude and hope that the phone location clears him)?

OP posts:
ncforuchelp · 02/05/2024 15:56

Ps: I hope sense is seen asap and your DS is told there will be no further action!

TinselSniffer · 02/05/2024 15:59

What a dystopian nightmare this sounds!

Your family deserve an apology and compensation when your son is cleared of involvement OP.

Echobelly · 02/05/2024 15:59

I agree with PP that it's shocking he could be arrested on so little evidence, and especially on AI evidence which is still very flawed.

A similar thing, but without AI happened to friend's adult son because he'd been a small amount of trouble once before and they ID as him someone who didn't even look especially like him, drove a car (friend's son couldn't drive) and it was for a crime totally unrelated to what he'd been in trouble for before and the case went further than you'd expect before it was chucked out

ArtificialIntelligenceNightmare · 02/05/2024 16:05

Freakinfraser · 02/05/2024 15:45

He’s a grown man, and they are allowed to act based on suspicion, if they weren’t no one would be arrested.

on saying that op, can he really not evidence where he was at the time?

He was asked in the interview where he was on a particular date and time last month. He said he was at his girlfriend's in bed because of the time of night and the fact it was a working day but how do you prove this in an interview? They have confiscated his phone which gets sent off to a lab somewhere to be looked at. They don't/won't/can't look at it there and then to prove it. I did somehow think they would just do that there and then because that would clear up the location in an instant but no, apparently that's part of the investigation. They said the lab is always busy and can take months to process.

OP posts:
Winter2020 · 02/05/2024 16:09

Get a complaint in straight away about the heavy handed way the arrest and search was made based on only the evidence of AI. Warn them if your son doesn't have his phone back and an apology in 24 hours you are going to the press. If they feel they have done nothing wrong then they have nothing to fear from the papers do they?

SeasickAccountant · 02/05/2024 16:10

OP my heart goes out to you. What a nightmarish experience - you must have felt/feel so violated and disempowered. Well done for staying as calm and clear as you have.

I agree with everyone saying you should take this further but it seems to me your first priority right now is to see yourself and your family - especially your son - through a traumatic experience. Please don't go to the press or take legal action till you are feeling strong enough to do so. Your poor son hasn't even had his phone back yet, never mind his name cleared. Just do what it takes to get you all through this as best you can, especially given your DS's ADHD. And to help him regain his confidence to rebuild his fledgling business.

Very best of luck to you and I am sorry you're enduring this.

DevotedSisterBelovedCunt · 02/05/2024 16:19

Freakinfraser · 02/05/2024 15:45

He’s a grown man, and they are allowed to act based on suspicion, if they weren’t no one would be arrested.

on saying that op, can he really not evidence where he was at the time?

They still have to have reasonable evidence, e.g. a police officer wouldn't be allowed to arrest someone because tarot cards said he dunnit. And if the only evidence is an experimental, untested, discriminatory technology that can't even differentiate between races, then tarot cards is a pretty apt comparison.

BoohooWoohoo · 02/05/2024 16:20

Fucking hell.

Facial recognition software is notoriously inaccurate when it comes to faces of people of colour. (You won’t be surprised to hear that white male faces are the most accurate because of the demographic of people who write the code)
Definitely pursue a case against the police. They shouldn’t be using software that is proven to be inaccurate but it sounds like the “manager” who thought that it could be your son is also racist if he can’t tell the difference with someone mixed black/white and Middle Eastern.

ArtificialIntelligenceNightmare · 02/05/2024 16:53

Thank you for all your replies. I've left messages with a few solicitor firms including the ones mentioned further up so hopefully I can get some advice soon. I'm just so worried and still shocked this has happened.

I'm considering the press route but slightly wary this might jeopardise any legal claim or the actual investigation itself.

OP posts:
Amx · 02/05/2024 18:12

No advice but what a fucking shock for you all. Lots of love and I hope it gets sorted with a massive fat apology x

ChateauMargaux · 02/05/2024 18:58

I am shocked... I hope you find a way to challenge this process that is clearly flawed and quite frankly the stuff of conspiracy theories.

I wonder if there are human rights lawyers who would take on this type of issue?

Whatever you do... your son and your family are your focus..

Another2Cats · 02/05/2024 19:29

@ArtificialIntelligenceNightmare Another firm who also do a lot of civil actions against the police are

https://www.dpp-law.com/services/actions-against-police/

Their main person in that area also has a blog where he gives examples of the cases he's dealt with.

https://iaingould.co.uk/

Including this example of a person who was also arrested as a result of mistaken identity.

https://iaingould.co.uk/case-reports/sussex-police-pay-damages-after-mistaken-identity-wrongful-arrest/

English criminal law

Actions Against the Police | Suing the Police | DPP Law

DPP Law specialise in civil actions against the police and assisting with wrongful arrests and false imprisonment. Learn more on our website today.

https://www.dpp-law.com/services/actions-against-police

Soigneur · 02/05/2024 19:57

Echobelly · 02/05/2024 15:59

I agree with PP that it's shocking he could be arrested on so little evidence, and especially on AI evidence which is still very flawed.

A similar thing, but without AI happened to friend's adult son because he'd been a small amount of trouble once before and they ID as him someone who didn't even look especially like him, drove a car (friend's son couldn't drive) and it was for a crime totally unrelated to what he'd been in trouble for before and the case went further than you'd expect before it was chucked out

He won’t have been arrested on AI evidence. The facial recognition software will have flagged a match and a police officer will have looked at both photos and decided that the match was close enough. The software doesn’t make any decisions - that’s down to the investigating officer. All the software does is flag up likely matches.

StarlightLime · 02/05/2024 20:16

Soigneur · 02/05/2024 19:57

He won’t have been arrested on AI evidence. The facial recognition software will have flagged a match and a police officer will have looked at both photos and decided that the match was close enough. The software doesn’t make any decisions - that’s down to the investigating officer. All the software does is flag up likely matches.

It's so obvious when you give it a second's thought.

socialdilemmawhattodo · 02/05/2024 20:37

Begsthequestion · 02/05/2024 15:29

https://www.bindmans.com/legal-services/individual/actions-against-police-and-state/

The above is a solicitors called Bindmans that has taken on many cases against the police before.

They are London based but if you're not, they can hopefully still advise and recommend a firm in your area.

Sorry you've all been put through this and I hope you can get justice soon.

You've posted the same link 3 times to a commercial firm of solicitors and become quite defensive on this thread. Do you have a vested interest in this firm? ie are you a partner, employee, relation to afore-mentioned.

Because if you have a vested interest fucking declare it. Or are you not allowed by codes of conduct to fakely obtain business.

socialdilemmawhattodo · 02/05/2024 20:49

@ArtificialIntelligenceNightmare I am sorry for your troubles Flowers. Sometimes our DC can get into terrible problems for not knowing quite what to say or do, but this sounds far beyond that. I am a data manager and have never forgotten reading the most incredible article from the States (c. 1995?) regarding indirect racism around who was returned to prison after probation breaches. Supposedly the system had been designed to remove bias, but it became clear that bias still existed and the article and research looked in to how that could be when all identifying factors had been removed. It was stunning how difficult it is to remove bias from systems.

I do hope you are able to progress your son being cleared as soon as possible. My DC got into an issue and their technology devices were removed for analysis. 3 months on we were advised we could collect as NFA. The items were still in the original bags and had never been looked at. I did query this (as I knew analysis would have cleared any questions as soon as) and was told that for our quite large counties - the cross-county team of 6 people was mostly engaged with CSA crime and anything else was a lower priority. (So fair enough but the resource to collect, store, log, etc knowing it will never go further does make me wonder).

ArtificialIntelligenceNightmare · 02/05/2024 21:02

Soigneur · 02/05/2024 19:57

He won’t have been arrested on AI evidence. The facial recognition software will have flagged a match and a police officer will have looked at both photos and decided that the match was close enough. The software doesn’t make any decisions - that’s down to the investigating officer. All the software does is flag up likely matches.

We were given very limited information on the process but the 'investigating' officer was not present at the arrest, search or interview and I'm guessing will only have seen the CCTV image matched with the traffic camera image. As I said there is a passing resemblance (nose and moustache) if you overlook the difference in race/complexion. I didn't see the traffic camera image so I'm not sure how clear that is but that was how the arrest was made - identification by the camera - not an officer seeing my son in person. The interviewing officer was given the case cold that morning and very definitely could see the perpetrator was not my son by his build, height, complexion etc. But the supervisor reviewing his decision (who as far as I know did not see my son in person apart from possibly his mugshot and the images) decided further investigation was needed, i.e. the phone location extracted. At least that is what we were told. We have nothing in writing so I'm going by what I remember hearing and bearing in mind I'm having to piece all the interactions together as there wasn't one person overseeing it from start to finish. I imagine the 'investigating' officer will get a report from the 'interviewing' officer and his supervisor plus the interview tape and then eventually will get the phone location report. My son has a date in July to report to a different police station where presumably we will be given an update. It just seems a very long-drawn out process to prove his innocence but the crux is the AI match sparked the arrest and there was just enough of a resemblance for one person to think it is worth investigating. And again I would emphasise that in my eyes I can see the difference in race/complexion and features but it was eye-opening to me to see that someone else couldn't. I was honestly incredulous at it especially as the interview was over so quickly and it originally seemed like a no-brainer that no further action would be taken. I protested (politely) but the solicitor said there was nothing we could do at that point other than to let the investigation run its course and make a formal complaint via the website. You can't speak to any police officers in the station which is so frustrating as I just wanted it sorted out as quickly as possible.

OP posts:
ButterCrackers · 02/05/2024 21:07

How shocking. Agree with the poster who wrote to focus on your son and family. Get him a new phone and he’ll soon have his contacts back from reaching out to them. Do follow up the legal aspects. The main thing atm is to get back to normal.

Slimeblimeclimb · 03/05/2024 09:06

@ArtificialIntelligenceNightmare This might be of interest. https://post.parliament.uk/how-is-artificial-intelligence-affecting-society/?utm_source=POST+alerts&utm_campaign=cd83b96526-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2024_05_03_08_00&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_bf17dda729-cd83b96526-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D&mc_cid=cd83b96526&mc_eid=eb4e8ce6d5#heading-4 It has just been published by the Parliamentary Office for Science and Technology and has a bit on surveillance, including a link to the Home Office Fact Sheet on using AI.

Hoppinggreen · 03/05/2024 09:23

Begsthequestion · 02/05/2024 15:51

When a civil claim is made then the circumstances are taken into account.

The people who have been affected by unjust policing need to speak to qualified, experienced solicitors on the matter.

I posted a link to qualified, experienced solicitors.

This is not a debate I'm going to have on here, like it's a thread about what you should have for dinner.

These are people's lives and traumatic experiences being discussed.

I'm going post the link one last time for anyone on here who feels like they have been treated unfairly by the police: https://www.bindmans.com/legal-services/individual/actions-against-police-and-state/

Good luck op x

Dont assume that nobody on here isnt equally qualifed and experienced.
I agree OP should take legal advice IRL on this but your responses to @prh47bridge have been rude and unecessary

Hoppinggreen · 03/05/2024 09:26

ArtificialIntelligenceNightmare · 02/05/2024 16:53

Thank you for all your replies. I've left messages with a few solicitor firms including the ones mentioned further up so hopefully I can get some advice soon. I'm just so worried and still shocked this has happened.

I'm considering the press route but slightly wary this might jeopardise any legal claim or the actual investigation itself.

With regards to the press please be very careful as their interest is in a good story rather than helping you in most cases.
I know several people who went to the press hoping to highlight something and ended up being quite embarrassed and upset by the subsequent articles.
For example as you have seen on here people find your childrens bedroom arrangements worthy of comment

Begsthequestion · 03/05/2024 14:22

Hoppinggreen · 03/05/2024 09:23

Dont assume that nobody on here isnt equally qualifed and experienced.
I agree OP should take legal advice IRL on this but your responses to @prh47bridge have been rude and unecessary

Of course you should assume that - anyone can pretend to be anything online. Your stance is extremely unwise.

That's why I keep reiterating the need to speak to professionals offline about this.

Ozanj · 03/05/2024 19:34

ArtificialIntelligenceNightmare · 02/05/2024 14:36

That's what I'm thinking now I've googled endlessly but what does taking legal action mean? Do I pay a solicitor to take up the case separately to the assigned duty solicitor? And what could the potential outcomes be?

A QC might be willing to take this on for free. Maybe email around and see what they say.

StarlightLime · 04/05/2024 09:18

Ozanj · 03/05/2024 19:34

A QC might be willing to take this on for free. Maybe email around and see what they say.

Why would any QC do that?

prh47bridge · 04/05/2024 11:20

StarlightLime · 04/05/2024 09:18

Why would any QC do that?

They are KCs now, not QCs, but some will take on cases for free, mainly to help people who aren't eligible for legal aid and can't afford to bring a case themselves.