Power of attorney- mentally ill family member

[Resisterance]

My sibling has been seriously mentally ill (not formally diagnosed but some form of schizo affective disorder) for many years and lives with our parents. He doesn't leave the house or we anyone. He doesn't exist anywhere and there is no record of him ( I.e. no benefits etc) because he thinks he's being followed by an enemy country. He isn't.

As my parents are getting older and rent rather than own, I worry about the implications of my siblings' care and support when they're gone. I have asked them to set up an account or some kind of provision for him for this reason but they've just told me ( after years of asking) that they haven't got round to it. In part because they're still in denial about how acute the situation is.

I really think we need something in place to pay into so we can support him in the future. But you can't open an account for someone without their permission. And he wouldn't give permission because of the enemy country thing ... he thinks ' they' would find him.

My parents don't have much money and I'm not in a much better situation (single mum) so there's really no lump sum to give him when they go. So what would be best is an account could pay into monthly to build something up for him. Is there any way to do this?

World we need power of attorney to do so? How can we get this without him wanting to sign anything? What do people do when complex mental health issues are involved? He would fail the mental capacity act so could he be said to give consent anyway?

I've spoken to mind charity but they say there's not much they could suggest. I would really like to find a way to build some safety net for him into the future.

When my parents pass away he won't have any money or anywhere to live so it's concerning me how I would manage to support him as a result.

Getting a diagnosis would help on a. number of practical levels

but more importantly - him.

So he’s not on any medication?

I think social services should be involved if they aren't already.

I don't think that giving him a bank account with money in it is a great idea if you think he lacks capacity enough that you'd seek power of attorney.

It might be better setting up a trust for him.

Has he ever seen a GP or anything about his MH?

I think I'd begin to start to make him known to the services like Adult Social Care , he would probably refuse an assessment at this stage but in the future it will likely become adult safeguarding if he is vulnerable, has no money or a place to live. I would also talk to the GP about his mental health or your parents GP about the likely impact for them going forward. I'd be wanting him to be less invisible so that when the time comes and something has to happen there is some awareness that he exists and will need support services or mental health services . It soundslike a very difficult situation.

Gosh this sounds really difficult and unfortunately I think your parents, despite their best efforts, have set you up for an awfully hard time by failing to get your brother formally assessed and diagnosed. It sounds like he is completely dependent on your parents and exists without any form of financial or social care support. I imagine that any change to the current arrangements (like your mum or dad becoming very ill or passing away) will trigger a crisis.
You may be able to avoid this but only with a lot of hard work and the cooperation of both your parents.
I would recommend contacting social services for a care assessment, visiting your (or your parents) GP and explaining your concerns about your brother. You will also likely need to get a deputyship in place for finances and potentially welfare. Unfortunately the welfare deputyship might not be of much use if he gets sectioned.
You can also speak to a solicitor specialising in capacity law and/or disability trusts if you want to help out together a long term financial package

To take out an LPA, the donor has to be of sound mind and agree to the Attorneys having power, so this may not be the best option, if he doesn't want one.

Depending upon diagnosis etc, court of protection may be a better option

CBF have lots of useful information about deputyship and other issues relating to having family members/loved ones with complex needs
https://www.challengingbehaviour.org.uk/information-and-guidance/rights-and-the-law/deputyship/

He would fail the mental capacity act so could he be said to give consent anyway?

No because that would leave people open to abuse.

You would have to apply for a deputyship through the Court of Protection. There are ongoing costs involved and you would be supervised.

https://www.gov.uk/become-deputy

He can only give a Power of Attorney if he is willing and mentally able to do so. At sounds as though that fails on both counts.

The alternative, assuming he has, or will inherit, money is to apply to the Court of Protection for somebody, probably a relative, to be appointed as a Deputy to manage his property and affairs. The court will need medical evidence under the Mental Capacity Act. A diagnosis would help but if his incapacity is self evident that may not be a showstopper.

The court's staff cannot givelegal advice but can talk you through the process.

As regards benefits then a Deputy could apply on his behalf.

If there are no assets but, post parents, he will need money to live on the DWP can make somebody his Appointee under Social Security Legislation so that Universal Credit and PIP as appropriate can be sought.

You cannot get poa without his agreement or if he lacks capacity. He needs a formal diagnosis, is he known to a gp or mh team. He should have a birth certificate. Agree he needs an assessment and may be safer in supported housing and if he is paranoid that could be assessed and its not fair to leave him in distress.

So what would be best is an account could pay into monthly to build something up for him. Is there any way to do this?

On this point, there's nothing stopping you opening a saving account in your name with a regular standing order.

Also nothing stopping you gifting him the cash from that account in future.

You don't need power of attorney or deputyship to save money and gift it to someone.

(There would potentially be inheritance tax implications if your estate was over the inheritance tax threshold and you died within 7 years of making the gifts.)

I would be wary of setting up a savings account which would be given to him, especially if money is tight.

We have two children with severe learning difficulties and have set up a trust will so when we die any assets with be controlled by trustees (our siblings plus a lawyer to oversee).

We were advised that directly leaving them it giving them any money would make them vulnerable to people taking advantage and also could affect any benefits they might get.

I think the first step is to contact adult social care for your county. I had to do this recently when my mum lost capacity due to terminal illness and they were helpful. My dad also had to do this via my auntie's GP as she lives alone, was refusing any family access or support. The GP got social care involved and thankfully she has some support. He does have POA for her though I didn't for my mum.

@estdestd1869 thanks. He's not on any medication and never has been. He's not had any engagement with mental health services. Given his mental health state there's practically no chance of this either unless he were to be sectioned but as he's looked after and can manage I don't suppose that would happen either.

Thanks @doingmybest12 I just don't think my parents would be up for social services being involved. My sibling probably hasn't seen a GP for 15 years.

If he hasn't seen a gp or mh services who has decided he has a serious mental illness. If he is unwell surely he needs specialist help and a plan to help him, it's not about your parents. He might be safer if he was properly assessed, is the plan just to leave him in distress and untreated. If he needs mh support he can go voluntarily and a section is fir the patients benefit.

Forget the financials Op

You have diagnosed your brother as a schizophrenic despite him never having been in front of a medical professional.

He is a danger to himself, possibly his parents and possibly the general public

Your parents have dismally failed their child

You sound like a nice person and caring sister OP but sadly the best thing you can do is get him sectioned.
Because right now he hasn't been diagnosed. He's not 'documented' as a vulnerable person. You just saying so doesn't make it so.
If he refuses to go to the GP or engage with any other service + is shielded by your parents there's nothing you can do about it until they pass.

There's nothing stopping you from putting money aside for him but a) you can't make him a bank account against his will and even if he did have one he'd probably waste the money and b) what expenses do you think he's going to have?

Resisterance · Today 18:43

Thanks @doingmybest12 I just don't think my parents would be up for social services being involved. My sibling probably hasn't seen a GP for 15 years.

This is really worrying @Resisterance I know they’re your parents, but they’ve got this wrong. Your sibling is entitled to the support he needs, and you’re entitled to this being sorted so that you’re not least to pick up the pieces.

Who is making decisions for him, is anyone listed as a nearest relative, how old is he.

You can't just get someone sectioned.

https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/legal-rights/nearest-relative/sectioning-and-guardianships/

I think you need to park the idea of a safety net if neither you nor your parents have the assets to spare to provide a comfortable amount for him.As your parents rent they will have enough issues themselves funding their own care needs as they get older. You need to work on your parents to start to face up to the reality of what might happen to your brother when they aren’t there and try to find a way to a. encourage him to engage with services b. Have him recorded as a vulnerable adult on his GP records. I’ve met enough people with enduring mental illness who end up on the streets to know the potential ways this could end.

Also, they need benefits advice as they are missing out in carers allowance for one.

Unfortunately by loving and protecting their son they have failed him.

Like I said, you can't just get someone sectioned. The nearest relative can apply for assessment, but it's still doctors (incl s12 medics) making the decision or not.

The op is also not currently her brother's nearest relative anyway. That's legally defined and it's not her in this situation.