Page 5 | Who should be liable for crash?

Ohownnoe · 2023-11-16T20:09:12+00:00

If someone can drive around a roundabout as many times as they want does this mean they have right of way ? They entered the roundabout in the wrong lane, not following the directional arrows and cutting people off trying to exit. Someone crashed into the side of my car on a 2 lane entry and exit roundabout when they were using the wrong lanebut I'm told by insurance company it will be 50/50 and will affect my insurance now 🤨

SheilaFentiman · 17/11/2023 10:02

Givejimmybluntachance · 17/11/2023 09:51

You can't just drive into somebody. You can only change lanes if there's is space for you and it is safe to do so. You can't just ram somebody out of the way because you think they should have left the roundabout. I be don't think it is 50:50. In think it was your fault.

Have you actually read the thread? OP did not change lanes and did not ram anybody

Original poster

Ohownnoe · 17/11/2023 10:05

Givejimmybluntachance · 17/11/2023 09:51

You can't just drive into somebody. You can only change lanes if there's is space for you and it is safe to do so. You can't just ram somebody out of the way because you think they should have left the roundabout. I be don't think it is 50:50. In think it was your fault.

They actually rammed me. I didn't drive into them. So the arrows on the road are for decoration and people don't have to follow them? If they are driving in the incorrect lane THEY can ram their way around?

OP posts:

akkakk · 17/11/2023 10:53

There are a lot of misconceptions on here - perhaps worth reading the Highway Code... some summary points:

There is no such thing in British law as right of way - the only mention of it in the Highway Code is to specifically say that it does not exist! We have priority, but priority doesn't allow the OP to drive off the roundabout across the course of the other car - nor does it allow the other car to drive across in front of or into the side of the OP
The Highway Code specifically states that on a roundabout you must be aware of all other road users, and allow specifically for those who are not in the correct lane / driving as expected - i.e. the OP should have been asking herself whether the other car was exiting / staying on the roundabout - equally the other car should have been checking what the OP was doing before assuming they could carry on around the roundabout
The Highway Code specifically states that it is every road user's responsibility to avoid accidents - that is the default position - no getting on a high horse about rights of way or anything else - if you could have avoided an accident and didn't, you will hold some of the liability.
It is totally legal for a car to circle a roundabout as many times as they wish - they can sit there doing that all day - they still have to allow for all other road users though
White markings on the road are generally indicative and not mandatory

So, there is very clear evidence that both parties hold responsibility - the Highway Code is clear that both should have avoided the other, and what both were doing was legal, there is no right or wrong here - it is about responsibilities and both drivers had a responsibility to avoid the accident and didn't.

Both drivers should have been aware of the other car, and at each junction should be asking themselves - what is the other car doing / planning on doing - and then compensating where necessary... slowing down or speeding up, both might have worked.

One of the simplest techniques on a roundabout is to never be exactly alongside another vehicle - it is a common accident and will almost always be 50:50 responsibility.

In general if more drivers stopped believing that they have right of way and started to think about other road users and compensating for them - overall number of accidents would plummet over night.

mummyh2016 · 17/11/2023 12:14

GrannyAchingsShepherdsHut · 16/11/2023 22:47

I think it depends on which of these happened.

This. Which roundabout was yours like OP?

HappyMavis · 17/11/2023 14:18

akkakk · 17/11/2023 10:53

There are a lot of misconceptions on here - perhaps worth reading the Highway Code... some summary points:

There is no such thing in British law as right of way - the only mention of it in the Highway Code is to specifically say that it does not exist! We have priority, but priority doesn't allow the OP to drive off the roundabout across the course of the other car - nor does it allow the other car to drive across in front of or into the side of the OP
The Highway Code specifically states that on a roundabout you must be aware of all other road users, and allow specifically for those who are not in the correct lane / driving as expected - i.e. the OP should have been asking herself whether the other car was exiting / staying on the roundabout - equally the other car should have been checking what the OP was doing before assuming they could carry on around the roundabout
The Highway Code specifically states that it is every road user's responsibility to avoid accidents - that is the default position - no getting on a high horse about rights of way or anything else - if you could have avoided an accident and didn't, you will hold some of the liability.
It is totally legal for a car to circle a roundabout as many times as they wish - they can sit there doing that all day - they still have to allow for all other road users though
White markings on the road are generally indicative and not mandatory

So, there is very clear evidence that both parties hold responsibility - the Highway Code is clear that both should have avoided the other, and what both were doing was legal, there is no right or wrong here - it is about responsibilities and both drivers had a responsibility to avoid the accident and didn't.

Both drivers should have been aware of the other car, and at each junction should be asking themselves - what is the other car doing / planning on doing - and then compensating where necessary... slowing down or speeding up, both might have worked.

One of the simplest techniques on a roundabout is to never be exactly alongside another vehicle - it is a common accident and will almost always be 50:50 responsibility.

In general if more drivers stopped believing that they have right of way and started to think about other road users and compensating for them - overall number of accidents would plummet over night.

Edited

This is such a good post. "Misconceptions" is nicely diplomatic too.

Rule 185 has what, a massive 4 bullet points and yet I think only one other person mentioned give priority rather than give way.

On the plus side, threads like this are a very handy reminder of what's out there on the roads.

TheDogIsInCharge · 17/11/2023 14:46

CormorantStrikesBack · 17/11/2023 06:46

I don’t think that’s right and if it is right I’ve been doing ro7ndabouts wrong for 30 years (possible). On a two lane entry and exit roundabout I don’t see the need to move over. There might never be space in the left lane to do so and you can’t park up in the roundabout and wait for a space?

Show quote history

It isn't right.

If a roundabout like the one on the diagram has two lanes signed to both be able to go ahead with the inside one showing arrows that allow a left exit and straight ahead and the right lane with arrows showing straight ahead and a right exit - like on many A roads/dual carriageways for example - BOTH LANES can exit the roundabout straight ahead. It is very common. Moving over lanes mid roundabout in this scenario will cause horns and lots of irritated drivers who know what they are doing.

There's a roundabout near me with five exits and it's fucking chaos - I swear the vast majority of people have zero idea of what lane they are supposed to be in for what exit. I used to have to drive it regularly and it is the main reason I got a front and rear dash cam fitted as I have witnessed so many near misses.

EarringsandLipstick · 17/11/2023 21:42

akkakk · 17/11/2023 10:53

There are a lot of misconceptions on here - perhaps worth reading the Highway Code... some summary points:

There is no such thing in British law as right of way - the only mention of it in the Highway Code is to specifically say that it does not exist! We have priority, but priority doesn't allow the OP to drive off the roundabout across the course of the other car - nor does it allow the other car to drive across in front of or into the side of the OP
The Highway Code specifically states that on a roundabout you must be aware of all other road users, and allow specifically for those who are not in the correct lane / driving as expected - i.e. the OP should have been asking herself whether the other car was exiting / staying on the roundabout - equally the other car should have been checking what the OP was doing before assuming they could carry on around the roundabout
The Highway Code specifically states that it is every road user's responsibility to avoid accidents - that is the default position - no getting on a high horse about rights of way or anything else - if you could have avoided an accident and didn't, you will hold some of the liability.
It is totally legal for a car to circle a roundabout as many times as they wish - they can sit there doing that all day - they still have to allow for all other road users though
White markings on the road are generally indicative and not mandatory

So, there is very clear evidence that both parties hold responsibility - the Highway Code is clear that both should have avoided the other, and what both were doing was legal, there is no right or wrong here - it is about responsibilities and both drivers had a responsibility to avoid the accident and didn't.

Both drivers should have been aware of the other car, and at each junction should be asking themselves - what is the other car doing / planning on doing - and then compensating where necessary... slowing down or speeding up, both might have worked.

One of the simplest techniques on a roundabout is to never be exactly alongside another vehicle - it is a common accident and will almost always be 50:50 responsibility.

In general if more drivers stopped believing that they have right of way and started to think about other road users and compensating for them - overall number of accidents would plummet over night.

Edited

That's a really good post.

mrsplum2015 · 17/11/2023 23:55

Had similar and was advised to go 5050
I went round and round in circles with friends, solicitor, Insurance company and deduced that these things are so expensive to take to court it wasn't worth it.

rwalker · 18/11/2023 07:28

Get what happened you both entered roundabout at 12 o’clock you went in inside lane exited at 6 o’clock the other person exited at 9 o’clock and went 3/4 of the way round the roundabout in the outside lane

yes they were in the wrong lane but doesn’t leave you blame free for crashing into them

they should of been in inside lane
you should of looked before you cut across to exit
50/50

SheilaFentiman · 18/11/2023 07:41

rwalker · 18/11/2023 07:28

Get what happened you both entered roundabout at 12 o’clock you went in inside lane exited at 6 o’clock the other person exited at 9 o’clock and went 3/4 of the way round the roundabout in the outside lane

yes they were in the wrong lane but doesn’t leave you blame free for crashing into them

they should of been in inside lane
you should of looked before you cut across to exit
50/50

This is not what happened. Read the thread and look at the diagrams.

SheilaFentiman · 18/11/2023 07:42

OP did not cut across their lane and was crashed into by the other car, not vice versa.

Peacheroo · 18/11/2023 09:05

Just out of interest @Ohownnoe was this in MK? Land of roundabouts? It's a nightmare there. A lot have three lanes with the middle and right going straight so 9/10 times they are messed up and you have a near miss?

Original poster

Ohownnoe · 18/11/2023 10:04

No it wasn't in MK. Was just a 2 lane roundabout. Thanks for everyone's replies. Good to see the different opinions.
I always thought you need to follow the directional arrows, stay in your lane as the arrows direct to avoid a crash . My crash was unavoidable as I did see their vehicle there but I can't predict someone has entered on the wrong lane unless they give some indication. Next time I will be protecting my no claims bonus as accidents aren't always as black and white apparently!

OP posts:

Imreallytiredandanxioustoday · 18/11/2023 12:11

I wouldn't be accepting liability on this. Rh The other driver was in the wrong.

Your insurer are pushing you for 50:50 because it's less hassle that going to court. If you have the appetite for court tell them no chance are you accepting it

EarringsandLipstick · 18/11/2023 14:18

I always thought you need to follow the directional arrows, stay in your lane as the arrows direct to avoid a crash .

Well, of course you do. The other car was not correct to do what they did.

My crash was unavoidable as I did see their vehicle there but I can't predict someone has entered on the wrong lane unless they give some indication.

I disagree with this. No, you couldn't predict they were in the wrong lane, but you clearly didn't check your mirrors and behind you correctly to check what way the car was moving. As you were exiting, it was continuing on (wrongly). Maybe you might still not have been able to avoid a collision, but you would have been able to see the direction of movement - they didn't just veer towards you.

It is the case that people should observe directional rules on a roundabout and signal correctly - but you also have to take responsibility for checking for hazards and observing what's happening around you especially as so many people use roundabouts incorrectly

EarringsandLipstick · 18/11/2023 14:19

Imreallytiredandanxioustoday · 18/11/2023 12:11

I wouldn't be accepting liability on this. Rh The other driver was in the wrong.

Your insurer are pushing you for 50:50 because it's less hassle that going to court. If you have the appetite for court tell them no chance are you accepting it

I'm interested in the comments about going to court.

Is that OP's right to decide? Perhaps insurance matters are handled differently in the UK? In Ireland, in my experience, the customer has no say in that decision, it is decided by the insurer.

Original poster

Ohownnoe · 18/11/2023 15:43

EarringsandLipstick · 18/11/2023 14:18

I always thought you need to follow the directional arrows, stay in your lane as the arrows direct to avoid a crash .

Well, of course you do. The other car was not correct to do what they did.

My crash was unavoidable as I did see their vehicle there but I can't predict someone has entered on the wrong lane unless they give some indication.

I disagree with this. No, you couldn't predict they were in the wrong lane, but you clearly didn't check your mirrors and behind you correctly to check what way the car was moving. As you were exiting, it was continuing on (wrongly). Maybe you might still not have been able to avoid a collision, but you would have been able to see the direction of movement - they didn't just veer towards you.

It is the case that people should observe directional rules on a roundabout and signal correctly - but you also have to take responsibility for checking for hazards and observing what's happening around you especially as so many people use roundabouts incorrectly

Can check signals and mirrors as much as you want but this is free flowing traffic and there is a point of no return so all you will observe is someone slamming into the side of your car! Your logic suggests there would never be car crashes if people just check their mirrors and all accidents are 50/50.
I was travelling a bit ahead, checked and turned. I did not turn into her, she turned into to me

OP posts:

EarringsandLipstick · 18/11/2023 17:13

Your logic suggests there would never be car crashes if people just check their mirrors and all accidents are 50/50.

Of course it doesn't 🙄

In the scenario you describe it's virtually impossible for what you describe to have happened, on a roundabout, with that lane structure without you noticing. The blue driver had to physically steer their car into your lane / direction (from the lane they were in) and if you were checking mirrors you'd see this as you exited.

You seem really fixated on what's 'right' and following lane directions. You aren't incorrect - they are in the wrong and driving recklessly.

But you do have a responsibility, as unless they shot out onto the roundabout (and you say they didn't), it's just not possible that you weren't able to observe their change in direction in time, and respond.

sandyhappypeople · 18/11/2023 20:26

EarringsandLipstick · 18/11/2023 17:13

Your logic suggests there would never be car crashes if people just check their mirrors and all accidents are 50/50.

Of course it doesn't 🙄

In the scenario you describe it's virtually impossible for what you describe to have happened, on a roundabout, with that lane structure without you noticing. The blue driver had to physically steer their car into your lane / direction (from the lane they were in) and if you were checking mirrors you'd see this as you exited.

You seem really fixated on what's 'right' and following lane directions. You aren't incorrect - they are in the wrong and driving recklessly.

But you do have a responsibility, as unless they shot out onto the roundabout (and you say they didn't), it's just not possible that you weren't able to observe their change in direction in time, and respond.

Mirrrors don’t really come into it to be fair from what OP has described, if someone is in the lane next to you and slightly behind you, you're not going to see them in your mirrors as they would essentially be in your blind spot, you would glance and see they were there, but seeing as they were in a straight ahead only lane, you would assume they were going straight ahead. Instead they suddenly turned right (and changed lanes) crashing into the side of OP, I’m not sure what OP could have done to pre empt that.

unlike the other driver, who could clearly see OP as op was slightly in front of them, but maybe they assumed op was going round the roundabout? or just panicked/distracted by looking at road signs and didn’t notice op until they hit them.

most roundabouts that have two straight ahead lanes, the left one will leave the island at that exit, the right one will leave OR continue round, the only way to continue round from that left lane is to indicate and move over if it’s clear, if it’s not you can’t just barge over.. if op was slightly behind this idiot they may have been able to avoid a collision.

EarringsandLipstick · 18/11/2023 20:35

you would assume they were going straight ahead.

You can't assume this (even though they are wrong)

Instead they suddenly turned right (and changed lanes)

They didn't 'suddenly' turn. It's a roundabout. They kept going - not a sudden move, the road was there for them to do this. Equally they didn't change lanes - they didn't take the correct exit, but they stayed in the left hand lane.

The mistake they made (and it was a very big mistake & certainly dangerous driving) was to continue around the round about when OP was correctly exiting, thus coming across her path.

While all of this is wrong, OP should have both seen & reacted - hence 50/50

but maybe they assumed op was going round the roundabout? or just panicked/distracted by looking at road signs and didn’t notice op until they hit them.

Whatever their reason they were a terrible driver & I've every sympathy for OP. I'm not excusing the blue car at all. It's just OP is being really rigid on fault here.

TootenCarMoon · 18/11/2023 20:41

HappyMavis · 16/11/2023 22:13

Your left tyres are on fire by the way (on both cars).

😂😂

sandyhappypeople · 18/11/2023 21:13

EarringsandLipstick · 18/11/2023 20:35

you would assume they were going straight ahead.

You can't assume this (even though they are wrong)

Instead they suddenly turned right (and changed lanes)

They didn't 'suddenly' turn. It's a roundabout. They kept going - not a sudden move, the road was there for them to do this. Equally they didn't change lanes - they didn't take the correct exit, but they stayed in the left hand lane.

The mistake they made (and it was a very big mistake & certainly dangerous driving) was to continue around the round about when OP was correctly exiting, thus coming across her path.

While all of this is wrong, OP should have both seen & reacted - hence 50/50

but maybe they assumed op was going round the roundabout? or just panicked/distracted by looking at road signs and didn’t notice op until they hit them.

Whatever their reason they were a terrible driver & I've every sympathy for OP. I'm not excusing the blue car at all. It's just OP is being really rigid on fault here.

They didn't 'suddenly' turn. It's a roundabout. They kept going - not a sudden move, the road was there for them to do this. Equally they didn't change lanes - they didn't take the correct exit, but they stayed in the left hand lane.

if this is a standard dual carriageway roundabout with marked arrows on the lanes, the left lane doesn’t continue round the roundabout.. it goes straight on, to go right they would have to move out of their lane, if you look at the picture you’ll see what I mean, (imagine OP is the car next to the word Derby) OP says the arrows on the road in the other drivers lane said straight on and left, the arrow in her lane said straight on and right.. you can’t go right from the left lane without changing lanes, the other driver is 100%.

if op was slightly in front of the other driver, she wouldn’t know they were going to suddenly change lanes and hit her.

some islands the left lane WILL continue round, but not if they are marked with arrows and only if the lane markers continue round.

socialdilemmawhattodo · 18/11/2023 21:25

Ohownnoe · 16/11/2023 23:01

It is exactly like this and the way the arrows are on this image as it is. This is what happened.

From that diagram the road markings are clear - blue should only go left or straight on. Are the road markings the same?

Red can go straight on or right.

plumtreebroke · 19/11/2023 12:36

Seems like you assumed they were turning the corner (which was probably reasonable) and they assumed you were carrying on around the roundabout because you were outside them approaching the exit, they wanted to carry on round and thought they were safe to do so (wrongly as it happens). Probably 50:50 particularly if no witnesses to confirm your version of events.

I am very cautious in those sort of situations when you can assume not everyone is familiar with the roundabout layout and often the directional arrows on the road are hidden by other traffic.