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Legal matters

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Who is next of kin of newborn baby if unmarried mum is incapacitated?

72 replies

WhatTheFuckDoIDo123 · 19/07/2023 21:02

I'm pregnant, father is my fiance. I've listed him as my chosen next of kin on hospital forms, however I know he wouldn't have parental responsibility for baby without attending registration with me.

Due to some pregnancy complications, I'll need a C section and am at higher risk of complications such as a haemorrhage. If I haemorrhage and get put under general so I can't make decisions and they want to do tests etc to baby, who is the next of kin? Will my fiance be able to consent in my absence even though birth isn't registered yet? Or would it go to someone else?

OP posts:
IDontDrinkTea · 20/07/2023 13:27

You can ask the hospital to not let your parents in unless you’re there and awake. Then they can’t cause any havoc. All maternity wards have locked secure doors so it wouldn’t be an issue

greenacrylicpaint · 20/07/2023 13:52

dr will treat you and the baby.

however, he would not be able to take baby home as he is not the legal parent (yet).

we did a quick registry office marriage for that reason.

DinnaeFashYersel · 20/07/2023 14:06

Next of kin has no legal meaning in the UK.

If you want someone else to be able to make decisions on your behalf you need a Legal power of attorney.

Without it doctors will make medical decisions on your behalf.

If you were to die then social services would support your fiancé to get parental responsibilities to keep baby and dad together.

WhatTheFuckDoIDo123 · 20/07/2023 14:15

facebookmarketplace · 20/07/2023 11:51

Make it known to hospital staff that you don't want anybody saying anything if anyone turns up or calls for updates. Even tell them that the only other person who knows your whereabouts is your husband.

Tell them that you know people who work in the hospital and you want to keep everything private.

Because I'll be in for a month or so before delivery (if we can keep baby in as long as hoped), they'll all know where I am and may well visit before/after shift etc. I can say I want medical info keeping quiet, but if they turn up to visit and I've been taken for section/ in surgery they'll at least realise something is up and call my parents to ask if the medical staff on the ward suddenly won't let them in or tell them where I've gone!

OP posts:
Toddlerteaplease · 20/07/2023 15:51

As a PP said, next of kin actually gives you no rights at all. Your known either will be taken into account. But in an emergency a best interests decision will be made.

Elsiebear90 · 20/07/2023 17:14

No one has any legal rights to dictate how doctors treat a patient, whether they are POA, NOK, parents etc, if there are options presented to you by the medical team you can decide out of those on their behalf based on what you would think they would want (NOK can also do this), but ultimately it is the decision of the medical team whether to treat or not and how, as they will be the ones to decide what is in the patient’s best interest. No one can demand treatment for someone else or refuse if the medical team have decided that is not in the patient’s best interest.

BiscuitsandPuffin · 20/07/2023 17:20

God just put your baby first and get married, sort out celebrations and inviting family to an event to make them feel special later. If you're really at death's door with pregancy you need to sort out getting married. If you're over-egging your pregnancy risks then obviously do nothing and put DP's family first like you are doing. It doesn't bode well though that neither you nor your DP seem to want to act in the best interests of the baby and they're not even born.

BiscuitsandPuffin · 20/07/2023 17:22

WhatTheFuckDoIDo123 · 20/07/2023 14:15

Because I'll be in for a month or so before delivery (if we can keep baby in as long as hoped), they'll all know where I am and may well visit before/after shift etc. I can say I want medical info keeping quiet, but if they turn up to visit and I've been taken for section/ in surgery they'll at least realise something is up and call my parents to ask if the medical staff on the ward suddenly won't let them in or tell them where I've gone!

You're not a child under the control of other adults. You're an adult who is about to become a parent, responsible for another human being. You need to start acting like one and take control of your life.

SueVineer · 20/07/2023 17:22

BiscuitsandPuffin · 20/07/2023 17:20

God just put your baby first and get married, sort out celebrations and inviting family to an event to make them feel special later. If you're really at death's door with pregancy you need to sort out getting married. If you're over-egging your pregnancy risks then obviously do nothing and put DP's family first like you are doing. It doesn't bode well though that neither you nor your DP seem to want to act in the best interests of the baby and they're not even born.

Why do you think it makes a difference to the baby if they are married?

Reugny · 20/07/2023 17:29

WhatTheFuckDoIDo123 · 20/07/2023 14:15

Because I'll be in for a month or so before delivery (if we can keep baby in as long as hoped), they'll all know where I am and may well visit before/after shift etc. I can say I want medical info keeping quiet, but if they turn up to visit and I've been taken for section/ in surgery they'll at least realise something is up and call my parents to ask if the medical staff on the ward suddenly won't let them in or tell them where I've gone!

Make sure when you are admitted to the maternity ward you tell the staff that you don't want any visitors while you are in hospital particularly any hospital staff.

When I had visitors on the postnatal ward the hospital checked I wanted them there. I did because it was one of my SILs who use to work on maternity wards. 😂

RoseslnTheHospital · 20/07/2023 17:42

@BiscuitsandPuffin why the aggro? The OP is quite clearly wanting the best for her baby like 99.99% of other soon to be parents. There are many different ways to express that desire. Your way isn't the only way.

WhatTheFuckDoIDo123 · 20/07/2023 20:02

BiscuitsandPuffin · 20/07/2023 17:20

God just put your baby first and get married, sort out celebrations and inviting family to an event to make them feel special later. If you're really at death's door with pregancy you need to sort out getting married. If you're over-egging your pregnancy risks then obviously do nothing and put DP's family first like you are doing. It doesn't bode well though that neither you nor your DP seem to want to act in the best interests of the baby and they're not even born.

Did someone shit in your porridge this morning?

OP posts:
Superfans · 20/07/2023 20:20

It’s not true that medical treatment for children unable to consent for themselves without parental consent is not a big problem. Medical treatment without consent is assault and can only be considered if a court order is in place. Of course doctors can act in a child’s best interests if parents are incapacitated/no one with PR is available to give consent or parents are viewed as seriously endangering the child by withholding consent to treat. But any clinician doing this must be prepared to justify the necessity of doing so in a court of law. In case of routine neonatal care when a mother is temporarily incapacitated this arises quite frequently and normally not a concern. But other situations may be more complex and consent is not an optional extra.

UncleRadley · 20/07/2023 20:48

It's interesting isn't it. In an emergency scenario your partner is there but your parents aren't. When medical decisions had to be made for my first they basically just told me what they were going to do even though is was pretty out of it. I am sure they would have asked my partner if I'd been unconscious just because he was there. And they asked him about decisions like the baby having medication and treatment in scbu.

UncleRadley · 20/07/2023 20:48

They don't ask for a bloody marriage certificate on the labour ward anyway!

WhatTheFuckDoIDo123 · 20/07/2023 22:16

UncleRadley · 20/07/2023 20:48

They don't ask for a bloody marriage certificate on the labour ward anyway!

Issue with the posts saying they won't ask if we're married is that my parents do know so it was more of a question of them turning up and telling them we aren't married and trying to insert themselves. Had another look at a quick wedding beforehand, however you have to give minimum 28 days notice and by that point I'll likely be admitted and not out until after birth. I guess I need to add asking about day release to things to discuss!

OP posts:
RoseslnTheHospital · 20/07/2023 22:22

If you specifically state to every HCP and have it on your birth plan that your parents are not to be informed of your medical situation and are not to be involved in any way with the baby, they will take that into account. Even if you are temporarily incapacitated. Especially if your notes name your partner as the father and your birth plan states that he is to be the person responsible for the baby if you are unable to.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 21/07/2023 01:34

Medical treatment without consent is assault and can only be considered if a court order is in place.

That is true of someone with capacity. It is an offence under both common law and the HSCA 2008 to treat a patient who has capacity without their consent, other than when they are unable to express it (e.g. a coma) or detained under the MHA etc.

The position WRT non-capacitous children is less clear. AFAIK, there has never been a criminal prosecution of an HCP for treating a child without parental consent. Professionals - not just HCPs, but teachers, childcare workers etc - do things to children all the time without consent from either the child (too young) or parent, which would be assault if you did them to an adult - from helping a Reception-aged child who has wet herself, to helping a child tuck its shirt into its trousers, to putting a dressing on a cut knee. You cannot extrapolate what is allowable for an adult and apply it to a child.

Court orders are typically sought when a parent opposes a medical intervention, or when parents disagree (strictly speaking, only one parent's consent is required but HCPs are unlikely to proceed with major procedures if the parents disagree).

A parent actively opposing a treatment is a very different situation from simply not having obtained parent consent. Otherwise paediatric wards would be unable to function. HCPs don't seek the parents' consent every time they take a blood test from a neonate on NICU, or give pain relief to a child, or 100s of other common interventions. Typically, active parental consent is sought for surgery, vaccinations, and major interventions, but not for minor, commonplace ones.

If it were assault to perform medical interventions on a child without securing the parent's consent, every paediatric HCP in the country would be in jail.

sashh · 21/07/2023 04:21

OP

You can ask the registrar to shorten the notice period, they might not but you can ask and explain why.

Mummyme87 · 21/07/2023 04:30

In the immediate post birth they will ask your partner for consent for everything for the baby. And baby’s father would take baby home if mum was so incapacitated (like in ICU) and baby was fit for discharge. I’m a midwife and this not uncommon for us to see. I saw it at work yesterday, woman in theatre for hours, baby needed some care and tests, father - unmarried, declined the tests.

Superfans · 26/07/2023 22:53

The parents consent to routine care by bringing the child to hospital and supporting them to stay there. This can be assumed in adults too - eg checking BP when patient holds out arm for cuff etc

If parents refuse an intervention - (BP, blood tests, vaccination) and doctors do it anyway, unless the child is clearly in immediate danger and needs urgent treatment that would be assault. Do you really think doctors get to decide what medical interventions to offer children without consent?

Similarly with schools, consent for routine school stuff is assumed by sending the child to that setting - if they want to do something that falls outwith that bracket they need consent.

Superfans · 26/07/2023 22:55

The NICU example doesn’t follow, parents have to consent to their child being on the NICU (unless it’s an emergency) they don’t specifically consent to every blood test no but it’s part of a care plan they have consented to.

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