Boundary dispute

[VictoriaBlossom]

I have a boundary dispute.
I bought my house in 2014
The house was built in 2007
Barratt the house builder put the fence in the wrong place, it has been in this position since the house was sold to owner 1. I am owner 2 of this house.

New management company came along in 2019, took ownership of public areas, which technically included my piece of "stolen" land.
This happened to my neighbour opposite also

Because 7 years have passed my solicitor has no interest in this, and Barratt have said they have no documents to do with the estate they built.

Management company now wants to charge me £2000 plus £1500 fees for me to pay for my own garden, I can't really put the fence back as A, it's so old it's rotten, and B I have a shed in the area.

If everyone has washed their hands, do I have no comeback?
House is mortgaged, and I cannot sell with a boundary dispute in place (I'm not looking to sell)

Feel as though I've been completely mugged off, bought the house at 24YO and it was my first house, solicitor said it's my responsibility to check the boundaries?

Just hoped someone could point me in the direction of where I could get help?
I feel like telling the management company to see me in court. Even the photos of the house for sale shows where the fence was so this really isn't my fault

Ah sorry misunderstood when the row first came up. Odd there are no plans on the council website. Was it maybe known as something else before the estate was built? You could probably view them at the council offices if you wanted to follow this up.

@LIZS I couldn't find anything with my postcode but I've found all the plans now.

So I've found the plans. On the planning portal, it does actually show where our fences are. (I've put a pink line where the boundary shows on the plans which are on the black and white image as the images are at different angles)

How can a planning portal show our fences in the position they're in now if they're supposed to go from land registry? Or is that because it doesn't go from land registry?

The circles property is my house

*circled

@VictoriaBlossom which is the Land Registry plan the B & W or colour?

Neither look like the file plan.

@Foreversearch the land registry plan mirrors the black and white image from the house builders uploads on the planning portal.

I don't have the deed plan to hand. But the deed plan does show the boundary line is in a different place to my fence line

@VictoriaBlossom The planning portal plans would normally precede the Land Registry plans for the simple reason you need the planning portal plans before you can build. Land Registry plans are OS plans which first show the land/field etc. and then, once the estate is built, the as built and fenced. OS use digital mapping so that is why I am confused that the Land Registry plans don’t show the fences as built in 2007.

@VictoriaBlossom I have said this before but you need to get the following from Land Registry, yes there is a cost but minimal e.g. £3 for each document.

• The register for your property
• The plan for your property
• The 2007 transfer document which will be referred to in the register
• The plan for the original site e.g. the field
• The deeds/documents documents for that registration that Barrett’s will have lodged. The plan in this document is likely to be the plan on the planning portal.

@Foreversearch it's all over my head. Hence coming to MN for a bit of advice

@Foreversearch I have it. But I'm not at home

@VictoriaBlossom The deed plan is not the same as the filed plan. When you get home get the filed plan out and upload a photo - after removing identifying info.

I'll find it and screen shot @Foreversearch

Although I've been on to land registry to buy the plans for the piece of land that isn't mine but I've treated as the garden.
I've done this by placing the marker to get the exact information.
It's come back with this

@Foreversearch

Is this what you're on about?
(Forgive my lack of knowledge please)

Oh, might that be a problem then if you’re going for adverse possession? You wouldn’t be granted right of way over a piece of land that you actually owned so it’s implicit that you don’t own it if there is a right of way across it. Adverse possession relies on the owner not having given you permission to use the land prior to you claiming it - that right of way might muddy the waters. Maybe prh47bridge can clarify that, it might not matter.
I had to claim adverse possession (it was the easiest route) over a piece of land that I actually did, and always had owned. The pieces of land all around me had been variously bought and sold, chopped up and developed over the years and somewhere along the line the boundaries had been incorrectly registered by someone so it looked like they owned a huge chunk of land at the edge of my property - I have no idea how this happened but it illustrates that Land Registry is not always correct. As we’ve owned the property and land for over forty years now we had no reason to be checking the Land Registry and it only came to light when a neighbour was applying for something and saw it was incorrect and informed us. We had years of photos and even aerial photographs of the area and our property so there was no issue with the land registry being corrected though.

@VictoriaBlossom yes that’s the filed plan, it’s pretty clear cut. Good idea to get the plan for the piece of land in question.

Is there any chance that the previous owners did a land grab and didn’t tell you? Developers do not always put up fences, I know my new home had a fence at the bottom but between plots was a low temporary wire fence. I ended up paying for 3/4 rather than 1/2 of the fences as only one neighbour paid their share.

The only other option I can suggest, is to get copies of the OS map for 2007/8 when the properties were first built and then any later versions. This, along with Google earth pictures, proves the fence has been in place since 2007.

It may be that the Filed Plan is based on a hand drawing from the deeds, this may happen if you buy a house before the development is complete and OS do their first survey.

I agree with @MandyMotherOfBrian if there is a ROW over the whole of the land in question and not just the path? (The two dotted lines alongside the parking space and garage) it may be harder to claim adverse possession. If however the ROW is just over the path, then as this runs alongside the parking space up to your fence you still have that ROW with the fence in its current position and could argue the ROW ends at your fence.

I assume your fence has a gate in it to allow access from the path, and the path ends at the gate.

@VictoriaBlossom sorry misread your post about the plan for the land next to your fence.

Two options, one is to search for the whole of the area in green, plus other public areas, on the coloured plan you posted earlier. The second is to phone Land Registry on Tuesday and ask for the plan, it is very likely the plan that includes that plot of land is quite big.

The right of way muddies the waters legally. I know this to my cost. Adverse Possession is harder with a right of way in place as there was a legal precedent set about this.

You are looking at up to £30k in legal costs if you end up in court over this. So do they of course so it's like a game of chicken.

I would post this on Garden Law Forum as there are Boundary Surveyors who post there.

I would pay them for the land in your shoes having almost had a breakdown over my own boundary dispute over which I ended up moving house

Unless you can be sure that your costs are capped at £3,500 and you are happy to pay it I would look at the adverse possession claim first. Once you start paying up it might weaken your adverse possession claim as part of your argument would be that you genuinely thought the land was yours until they wrote to you. Paying up too readily might make it look like you didnt really think it was yours. If Barratt put the fence in the wrong place and then sold the land to the managing agent, the managing agent took the land as it was presented. They must have known they would have to make an argument/negotiate over the wrongly fenced land. Barratt may even have conceded a reduction in land measurements and priced the land accordingly to the managing agent. You don’t know what has been discussed and agreed between Barratt and the managing agent do you? Barratt seem to be staying out of it and don’t appear to have volunteered any documents to you. At the end of the day what are the managing agents going to do? Demolish your fence and shed with a bulldozer? I doubt it as they would be taking a big risk of expensive repercussions.

Just a small point - but your original solicitor will have a copy of the planning permission for the development as a whole. It is hard to find those online (as opposed to pp application’s for individual houses).

as PP’s have said you have no claim
against them regarding position of the boundary.

Also helpful might be the EA sales particulars for when you bought - as the garden pics may show the garden fence in situ at point of purchase. They might be on Rightmove.

I know Barrett’s are being unhelpful but they may have sales brochures showing the fence in place when owner 1 bought.

TBH if you could get the purchase price down to £1k I’d be tempted to just purchase the land.