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Original poster

Boundary dispute

70 replies

VictoriaBlossom · 07/04/2023 14:52

I have a boundary dispute.
I bought my house in 2014
The house was built in 2007
Barratt the house builder put the fence in the wrong place, it has been in this position since the house was sold to owner 1. I am owner 2 of this house.

New management company came along in 2019, took ownership of public areas, which technically included my piece of "stolen" land.
This happened to my neighbour opposite also

Because 7 years have passed my solicitor has no interest in this, and Barratt have said they have no documents to do with the estate they built.

Management company now wants to charge me £2000 plus £1500 fees for me to pay for my own garden, I can't really put the fence back as A, it's so old it's rotten, and B I have a shed in the area.

If everyone has washed their hands, do I have no comeback?
House is mortgaged, and I cannot sell with a boundary dispute in place (I'm not looking to sell)

Feel as though I've been completely mugged off, bought the house at 24YO and it was my first house, solicitor said it's my responsibility to check the boundaries?

Just hoped someone could point me in the direction of where I could get help?
I feel like telling the management company to see me in court. Even the photos of the house for sale shows where the fence was so this really isn't my fault

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5
Original poster
VictoriaBlossom · 08/04/2023 08:10

@prh47bridge previous owner is now dead. That's also an issue

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Original poster
VictoriaBlossom · 08/04/2023 08:17

@mybeautifuloak it's basically the depth of a single garage. And maybe 1.5 x the width of a single garage.

Basically when Barratt put the fence up. It should have been at the back of a block of communal garages. But there's a really mature tree in the way, must be 100 years old.
So they just put the fence to the front of the block of garages.
It's big enough for me to put a 6x8 shed and keep my wheelie bins on

The piece of waste land that should be maintained by the maintenance company is fly tipped on and over grown. Which is I guess 4 metres wide by 14 metres long. So adding my bit of garden to it plus my neighbours bit of garden it makes it probably 25 metres long

So, I pay £400 a year to a maintenance company who have only owned the land since 2019 and they're sending me threatening letters. Makes the inner rebel in me want to push back. Their legal fees are coming out of the £400 each a year fund we have to pay them. Seems really unjust

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Original poster
VictoriaBlossom · 08/04/2023 08:18

@Japanesejazz previous owner died suddenly a few months ago

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prh47bridge · 08/04/2023 08:23

VictoriaBlossom · 08/04/2023 08:10

@prh47bridge previous owner is now dead. That's also an issue

Is there someone who can make a statement on their behalf?

Even if you can't get a statement, you may still be able to claim adverse possession. But it will be easier if you can get someone to confirm that the previous owner also believed that the land was theirs.

MinnieEgg · 08/04/2023 08:25

I had a similar hoo-haa with David Wilson. We didn't discover the mistake unthinkable we were selling which added some extra pressure and it meant we couldn't sell our house as the boundaries on the land registry were not the same as the ones that our whole row of houses had.

As ours was about eight houses it became almost impossible to sort out and we ended up having to part exchange with David Wilson just to get out.

Original poster
VictoriaBlossom · 08/04/2023 08:30

@prh47bridge I mean. There's Google earth history which shows the fence has been there for the entity of the house being built. And the tree in the way...

I wouldn't even know how to track his wife down. I only know he died cos he was a college lecturer and it was in the local facebook page. I also didn't have a great relationship with them as they tried to get me to pay an extra £10k on the house 3 days before it went through because their boiler went bang

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Original poster
VictoriaBlossom · 08/04/2023 08:31

@MinnieEgg Barratt David Wilson seem to not care at all. Can I ask, who pointed out the boundary issue on your sale? Because that's the person I want to go back to on my boundary, is it the mortgage surveyor or the solicitor?

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prh47bridge · 08/04/2023 08:42

The solicitor is not familiar with the property. They are not in a position to check that the boundaries on the plan are correct.

If the surveyor was given the plan and asked to check the boundary, they should have done so. However, most surveys do not include a check of the boundaries. The surveyor is definitely not required to get a copy of the plan from the land registry and check it.

It is normally the buyer's responsibility to check that the boundaries match the plan. I'm afraid there is little chance you will be able to make a claim against anyone else.

However, if you have evidence that the fence has been in place for more than 10 years, you may be able to claim adverse possession, in which case this land will be yours without any need to pay anything to the management company.

MinnieEgg · 08/04/2023 08:53

It was the solicitor. David Wilson didn't care either. Ever this was out by roughly a meter and a half. They wanted nothing to do with it at all.

Original poster
VictoriaBlossom · 08/04/2023 09:26

@prh47bridge it's frustrating when I've discussed this with newest and dearest, who have said about claiming off insurances and sueing solicitors blah blah blah, I thought going to MN, it might give me a better idea of what I should do.

For 3.500 I might just bite the bullet, obviously I'll counter the offer first. But if it is my responsibility to check a boundary it's a very naïve mistake for me to have made. Every day is a school day, but adverse possession id much prefer but I assume I can't do it without a legal person behind me?

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Movinghouseatlast · 08/04/2023 09:31

Boundary disputes can get very expensive, as I know to my cost. Even an adverse possession claim can incur costs, its not a simple process. It sounds like you have a claim though, but will need a declaration from the person you bought from.

Foreversearch · 08/04/2023 09:33

@VictoriaBlossom it would have been useful if you had given all this info about the letters and what has already been done in your initial op.

The Land Registry should have the original registration document for the whole estate. This will be under a different title number. What I am struggling with is why the Land Registry plan for your property was not based on the OS map drawn when the estate was first built. Normally these show the actual fence lines so would show yours where it is and that is what would have been sold to you and registered as such. The plan and register with this registrations should show who owns the public areas and the boundaries.

Phone Ordnance survey and ask for the oldest version of the 1km square Location Plan they hold of your estate (2007/2008) when it was built. This should show the boundaries as they were fenced.

As all of us have been telling you, you then need proper legal advice. Take all the paperwork you have, the Land Registry Documents, the dated google earth pictures, the letters to a solicitor, the OS map and they can advise you. With out all this paperwork no one on here can tell you the right course of action.

Yes this is going to cost you money, the question is how much. Only a solicitor can tell you what your options are and the cost. Trying to do it yourself with help from people on the internet could cost you ££££ when one visit to a solicitor may be worth it.

As I have said before Barratt’s made a mistake and the current owners failed to check their boundaries when they bought the land. It should be their responsibility to pay to correct their error by paying for the fence in the correct position. If legally they do own the land, then you may have to pay for it but again it was their error so I would suggest they should pay their legal fees and you should pay yours.

Foreversearch · 08/04/2023 09:55

@VictoriaBlossom meant to say get photos, particularly showing the unmaintained public areas against your fence and of the fence showing it’s age.

prh47bridge · 08/04/2023 09:56

VictoriaBlossom · 08/04/2023 09:26

@prh47bridge it's frustrating when I've discussed this with newest and dearest, who have said about claiming off insurances and sueing solicitors blah blah blah, I thought going to MN, it might give me a better idea of what I should do.

For 3.500 I might just bite the bullet, obviously I'll counter the offer first. But if it is my responsibility to check a boundary it's a very naïve mistake for me to have made. Every day is a school day, but adverse possession id much prefer but I assume I can't do it without a legal person behind me?

You do not need a solicitor to claim adverse possession. It is worth consulting a solicitor to make sure you've met all the requirements, but you can do it yourself. It should be a lot cheaper than buying the land from the management company with the associated legal costs.

You need to submit form ADV1 to the Land Registry with the fee (£130), a statement of truth on form ST1 explaining how you have used the land and why you believed it was part of your property, photos showing the current situation, historic plans/photos showing that the fence has been in place for ten years or more and any other evidence you have.

Re the legalese on the forms, you would be applying under paragraph 1 of schedule 6 and you intend to rely on paragraph 5(4) on the grounds that the land in question is adjacent to land belonging to you, the exact line of the boundary has not been determined under the rules in section 60, and you and the previous owner between you have reasonably believed that the land is yours for more than 10 years. Paragraph 1(3) does not apply and the restrictions in paragraph 8 do not apply. Don't worry about what the above means (although I will be happy to explain if you want to know) - just tick the relevant boxes.

You are claiming part of the title of the management company's land. You will need the title number for the land in question. If you don't know that, you can get it from the Land Registry by purchasing the Title register for £3.

Original poster
VictoriaBlossom · 08/04/2023 10:07

@prh47bridge well, thank you very much. Are you a solicitor?

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EnchentButteler · 08/04/2023 20:03

VictoriaBlossom · 08/04/2023 10:07

@prh47bridge well, thank you very much. Are you a solicitor?

Yes they are. Very respected on this board.

SphincterSaysWhat · 08/04/2023 23:41

Trespass isn't a criminal offence, it's a civil matter. Who did this letter come from - it seems unnecessarily combative, not to mention inaccurate.

Original poster
VictoriaBlossom · 08/04/2023 23:57

@SphincterSaysWhat this is from an actual solicitor!
I found it extremely threatening

I just copy and pasted it from the letter, so this is word for word what they have written:

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Original poster
VictoriaBlossom · 09/04/2023 00:00

@SphincterSaysWhat I'll just add, I actually have a right of way across the land. As there's a line stating it on the deeds.
I just don't want to get into a legal battle, yet feel like giving them a middle finger, letting them tot up the legal bills and just moving the fence.

But really that's costing me indirectly as they are paying the legal fees out of our management fees.

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prh47bridge · 09/04/2023 08:56

I would be very tempted to write back to the solicitors pointing out that trespass is not a criminal offence. It is an essential element of some offences but none of those apply here. You are not committing a criminal offence and any attempt at a criminal prosecution would fail. I would refer them to the SRA guidance regarding conduct in disputes and pointing out that the SRA may be interested in a solicitor who deliberately misrepresents the law to someone who is unrepresented, so they may want to think more carefully before making unwarranted threats.

LIZS · 09/04/2023 09:50

VictoriaBlossom · 09/04/2023 00:00

@SphincterSaysWhat I'll just add, I actually have a right of way across the land. As there's a line stating it on the deeds.
I just don't want to get into a legal battle, yet feel like giving them a middle finger, letting them tot up the legal bills and just moving the fence.

But really that's costing me indirectly as they are paying the legal fees out of our management fees.

If you already knew you have a row across it presumably that was highlighted by the solicitor when you bought it and therefore also that you did not own that area.

Original poster
VictoriaBlossom · 09/04/2023 09:53

Hi @LIZS it was never highlighted by the solicitor. And I had no idea it was the buyer's responsibility to check a boundary. I bought the house with no help or advice as had no one to go to.
Please don't act like I've written this as a pity post when I knew the boundary was wrong. I didn't

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Original poster
VictoriaBlossom · 09/04/2023 09:55

@prh47bridge your knowledge and advice has been so helpful. Thank you so much

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LIZS · 09/04/2023 09:57

But such easements are typically highlighted by solicitors as they are on Land Registry reports, even boundaries are not verified.

Original poster
VictoriaBlossom · 09/04/2023 10:17

The line I make reference to was a document sent to me from the management companies solicitor in their threatening letter @LIZS
I wouldn't know what I was looking at when I purchased the house

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