Joint Executors - lawyer impeding probate/blocking release of will

[BreadwinneBaker]

Hi all,
I'm in an interesting situation with a parent's will. I'm not a lawyer but have been an Executor before in various English estates and due to my job I'm fairly good at navigating bureaucracy/admin proceses.

A parent of mine recently died and a copy of the will contained at home stipulates that I and my sibling are the beneficiaries. As expected. However, the joint Executors are me plus my uncle.

I live in Scotland my uncle is in England, he's elderly and digitally excluded, doesn't know how to use email, text message or have any proper ID (i.e. no passport, no DVLA photocard, just a bus pass, and is barely literate - cannot write a letter of instruction, has refused to put a pen to paper to write a single paragraph saying he wishes to step back etc). He verbally and strongly confirmed he wants to "wash his hands" of any involvement in being Executor, is very stressed at the idea of being named on a legal document, and I want to take it on myself as it's a simple estate involving a small house (assets well under the IHT threshold etc). It's really not that complicated at all.

I have contacted the legal firm who did the will weeks ago to try and kick off getting the grant of probate.

Unfortunately, they have been quite opaque and are not helping to clarify next steps. They would not provide me or my co-Exec a copy of the official will (I just have the copy found at the house) or let me travel to England to see the will in their office. They will not let me make an appointment to prove my ID. They basically are saying until my co-Exec steps back, or "makes an appointment" and written instruction to let them release the will to me (which i've no idea how to engineer, short of travelling down to his house, writing up a letter and letting him sign it literally then and there) they cannot engage with me as "I am not their client". Whenever I speak to them, they keep pushing the idea of using their probate services within the firm for a fee (which I don't need or want).
Is this a normal legal approach when you have joint Execs?

It's the first time I've been an Exec with a joint Exec who functionally is unable to perform the role. And I've done it alone. Without any issues, even on a complex estate where the original house conveyancing wasn't all in order. But this time the whole process is really distressing and my parent's house just sitting empty over the recent cold snap is stressing me out - I don't see how I can move forward with getting the grant of probate in order to sell the house unless a miracle happens.

What is the NORMAL route to getting a will released on an English estate where there are co-Execs who don't live locally for a joint face to face office visit to the lawer?

Just to add, in case it's helpful, that the wording my siblings used was something like this.

Will of the late [name]

I, [uncle's name] of [uncle's address] hereby declare that I renounce my rights to act as executor of the late [name]'s will.

I confirm that I am happy for you to release the will to the remaining executor [your name] at [your address].

Signed

name and date

Well.. i have a partial outcome.

I'd emailed to ask 3 things:

1. Do I need an appointment to collect the will if I have a PA15 form completed by the unwilling exec, plus some ID?
2. Is email communication enough to count as them having "been instructed" (in light of their intention to send the will to the probate registry if clear instruction wasn't sent within 2 weeks)
3. Do I get the certificate of deposit if it's sent to the probate service after the 2 weeks they've given as the deadline?

This is what I got in response:

"If you are able to bring the PA15 form into the Office on X March 2023 together with your identification then we will be happy to release the Will to you.
I do not intend to respond to the rest of your email as you will appreciate that I have already spent an awful lot of time on this matter and I therefore look forward to seeing you on XYZ. You do not need an appointment for this as the Will will be ready on reception for you to collect."

Bearing in mind that I'd lived in Scotland for 15 years by the time my late parent was making the will, and the other unwiling Exec is far older than my late parent (so, really old even when the will was made!), I'd assumed they'd have expected to deal with non-locals as Executors and would have smoother ways to deal with this, but it seems not.

Bear in mind that the "an awful lot of time" is basically me being given the run around from secretaries on the phone (where I was told i couldn't even read the will without my co-Exec being there) and then my resorting to email weeks later.. it's been the grand total of 1 x 15min phone call when the death had just taken place, and 2 emails from the legal firm.

I'm not one for trying to get freebies from a firm and I know they'd have been much more helpful had I decided to use their probate services, but this latest email feels like a bit of a kick in the teeth during an already disappointing process of getting the will released.

I'm not sure where to go from here since they don't seem to be able to deal with my situation in a helpful manner and don't want to cause any issues when I turn up to the office with the PA15 and ID in hand to get the will. But my gut feeling is that i'd be hauled over coals if i sent an email like that to a client, never mind one whose mother has recently died and my firm had been mucking around...!!

Why are they being so bloody obstinate!

Honestly, I'd be replying along the lines of

'As per my initial telephone call of xx date I live in Scotland and therefore won't be able to attend on zz date. I am surprised that a situation whereby one executor is not local and one does not wish to act is so unusual that you have not been able to answer my simple questions as to how I may obtain the will of my late mother under these circumstances.
I am equally as frustrated that this is taking up so much of my time too and would have strongly preferred you had sought to help me obtain the will in the first instance rather than trying to push me to use your probate services which was not in my initial queries.
Given I see no way forward, please can you send me the details of your senior partner with whom I may raise a complaint.'

I'm outraged on your behalf OP .Fuming actually .

I like @HJ40 's response .

@HJ40 I've sent something similar, but longer, with specifics about contact points with their firm. at first i was really upset at it being insinuated i'm wasting their time but now i'm just frustrated - what a waste of everyone's time here! I'll see how it goes.

Good luck. I don't know the legalities of what has to happen for them to release it, but it just seems bloody ridiculous that they won't just think sensibly and tell you. And it's daft because they aren't being paid. They're just wasting everyone's time.

well my email to them said:

(a) whether I get the certificate of deposit if it goes to the central gov probate registry, or

(b) if an email is sufficient to avoid that automatically on 2 weeks from now - I still don't know what happens if I haven't managed to drive the 220 miles to my home village in time to get to the laywer's reception desk before close of business on XXX March (the day before the funeral which I am travelling for).

this is the reply:

I am sorry that you feel it appropriate to mention the complaints procedure within your email. Having spoken our complaints partner, you do not qualify to raise a complaint as you are not a client and we have not provided you with any legal services.
However, in reference to your email, I can confirm that taking into account you have said that in that you will provide me with the PA15 and your ID, I will not be lodging the Will with the Probate Registry until such time as I receive alternative instructions such as confirmation that there is a dispute between the Executors or that you are unable to attend the Office at all.
In response to your second bullet point and questions A and B, as I am not advising you I would urge you to seek your own independent legal advice with regards to this. I am not, and at no stage have I, provided any advice other than the procedure to release the Will and I am not in a position to offer advice as I do not have any instructions from you.
As such, if you would like to know the workings of lodging the Will with the Court which is unlikely to happen unless you are unable to attend at all, then you must seek your own independent legal advice.
I hope that you can see from the above that I am trying to be as accommodating as possible.

I'm genuinely not sure if i'm dealing with a really young, inexperienced lawyer or someone who's being obtuse, or being hampered by a senior partner not wanting any time spent on "free" activity without being paid for the probate service after someone dies. surely that's part of storing the will at the lawyer firm - dealing with the execs after? (NOT advising them).

I can see why they can't/won't release the will without something from your Co-executor but their tone is bloody awful! Don't they appreciate they are dealing with a grieving person?

In terms of who you are dealing with the law firm website will often indicate how senior they are. Alternatively if they are a solicitor their details will be on "find a solicitor" on the Law Society website. But they won't be on their if they are a paralegal or whatever.

Call the managing partner and explain it. Say if the will isn’t released you are making a formal complaint, and will need a prompt answer as they have delayed you so long you will have trouble getting the tax sorted, in which case you will taking action against them and going to the Legal Ombudsman- worth giving LeO a call anyway, they are generally very helpful.

ARGH. Why can't they understand that you don't want to instruct them?

OP, do you have legal cover with your home insurance or Which? legal cover who might be able to explain to you what the process should be, and then you can go back to them knowledgeably and state 'having sought my own legal advice'.

That doesn’t even make sense OP- boils my blood how badly some lawyers write. They seem to be talking about them lodging the will, which is not what you want - still worth contacting the managing partner- you are the executor and just want the will released to you, which as the person entitled to deal with the estate is your right. If they need the co-executor to agree (I don’t believe they should, as I understand co-executors can act jointly and severally) they need to tell you exactly what they want, & don’t tell them you are going to do it for him, just crack on.

What an absolute knob that lawyer is. I'd absolutely complain about him to the senior partner, even though you haven't engaged him to work for you 🙄

He's tried everything to make a difficult time even worse for you. What a wanker. And a wanker who thinks a lot of himself. And: What an awful writing style!

Hugs, op 💐

I do have legal insurance on my home insurance. I also have access to legal services because I work within a firm employing many of them (akin to an IFA, say, working within practice which has a legal arm). I'll use them if needed.

I just cannot understand how a legit firm can act so opaquely and be such a blocker that I think I'm going mad here. I intend to travel in person to see if I can get the will released using a stack of ID (they haven't clarified what they need but I'm assuming passport, DVLA license and a stack of bank and utility bills should cover it).

I have no idea how anyone would deal with it if you were old, or lived in Australia, or spoke English as a second language. You'd HAVE to pay them for probate services to get out of the Kafka nightmare!

Also, since I'm both an executor and the beneficiary (jointly, with my sibling) a basic Google suggested that I do have the right to complain about this experience formally. Guidance issued around 2013-14 from the law society covered that exact beneficiaries complaint situation.

And I'd want to know as a line manager and business owner surely.. but since I haven't seen this firm's complaints procedure (since they won't provide it when asked) who knows.

I'm going to get my hands on the will and take this further, if not just to avoid some other poor family going through similar if a will is there.

I had a similar experience with a lawyer in Scotland holding my DPs will. I am also very experienced in this field but not a solicitor. They refused to acknowledge there even was a will so I had to search boxes and boxes of paperwork to find a copy to prove it. Despite me being named as co-executor and the main beneficiary, my SD as co-executor had to take time off work to go in person with lots of paperwork to get the will. It was a nightmare and took weeks of obtuse communications.

The Law Society needs to get its act together and provide a set of guidelines/rules to make this easier as not everyone is able to get to the solicitor's office with all the paperwork.

That's shocking. And even worse than this current bunch of idiots. I'm actually planning to ask formally for the recordings of the 3 phone calls where I was told I couldn't go in with ID to read the will etc without my co exec being there or writing for agreement- if I had trusted their initial call, I'd not even know I was a beneficiary if I hadn't found a photocopy at the family home! I'm betting they don't record the calls though.

I really feel for you going through this. It was a horrendous time for me and so I find it unbelievable that these solicitors just make it worse than it needs to be. There is a central register of wills, but a lot of solicitors don't register them so even a search of the registry is ineffective.

I think the whole area of wills ,probate and administration is shockingly unmonitored and unregulated ;wide open to mismanagement and fraud .
The Law Society and the SRA (solicitors regulation authority )are not interested and are as much help as a chocolate teapot if you bring any concerns to them .

To have to deal with this when you are bereaved is difficult enough .To be met with such rudeness and obstruction is horrendous.And unfathomable.

Shocking.

...and don't get me started on badly written wills! Just generating more work for the future as the beneficiaries are forced to get advice to decipher them.

I did probate for my dads estate a few years ago. My brother and I were joint executors but he didn't want to be involved with the admin. I filled out this section on the probate application.