Joint Executors - lawyer impeding probate/blocking release of will

[BreadwinneBaker]

Hi all,
I'm in an interesting situation with a parent's will. I'm not a lawyer but have been an Executor before in various English estates and due to my job I'm fairly good at navigating bureaucracy/admin proceses.

A parent of mine recently died and a copy of the will contained at home stipulates that I and my sibling are the beneficiaries. As expected. However, the joint Executors are me plus my uncle.

I live in Scotland my uncle is in England, he's elderly and digitally excluded, doesn't know how to use email, text message or have any proper ID (i.e. no passport, no DVLA photocard, just a bus pass, and is barely literate - cannot write a letter of instruction, has refused to put a pen to paper to write a single paragraph saying he wishes to step back etc). He verbally and strongly confirmed he wants to "wash his hands" of any involvement in being Executor, is very stressed at the idea of being named on a legal document, and I want to take it on myself as it's a simple estate involving a small house (assets well under the IHT threshold etc). It's really not that complicated at all.

I have contacted the legal firm who did the will weeks ago to try and kick off getting the grant of probate.

Unfortunately, they have been quite opaque and are not helping to clarify next steps. They would not provide me or my co-Exec a copy of the official will (I just have the copy found at the house) or let me travel to England to see the will in their office. They will not let me make an appointment to prove my ID. They basically are saying until my co-Exec steps back, or "makes an appointment" and written instruction to let them release the will to me (which i've no idea how to engineer, short of travelling down to his house, writing up a letter and letting him sign it literally then and there) they cannot engage with me as "I am not their client". Whenever I speak to them, they keep pushing the idea of using their probate services within the firm for a fee (which I don't need or want).
Is this a normal legal approach when you have joint Execs?

It's the first time I've been an Exec with a joint Exec who functionally is unable to perform the role. And I've done it alone. Without any issues, even on a complex estate where the original house conveyancing wasn't all in order. But this time the whole process is really distressing and my parent's house just sitting empty over the recent cold snap is stressing me out - I don't see how I can move forward with getting the grant of probate in order to sell the house unless a miracle happens.

What is the NORMAL route to getting a will released on an English estate where there are co-Execs who don't live locally for a joint face to face office visit to the lawer?

(BTw, just to be clear, i understand that during the probate application process my co-Exec could sign a renunciation deed.. but i'm specifically stuck at the will release from the lawyer. i can't even get to the probate application step without it.)

Is the Will you have signed?

Has all your communication with the solicitor been verbal? If you wrote to them and asked your uncle to jointly sign the letter, I imagine they would charge you for releasing the Will but couldn't actually refuse

The will i have is a photocopy of the signed, witnessed will attached to the legal bill for drawing up the will in 2015.

Yes all this has been done via phone call due to (me) living so far away in Scotland.

I have offered to write a letter that my uncle could sign and then re-post to them (so: i sign, send to uncle to sign, then he posts to them) but they said that was unacceptable because neither of us "are their clients yet". That's when they kept pushing probate services. Which is not needed (i am a willing and capable Exec) or wanted (i found the process quite interesting the last time i was involved in a complex estate house sale). I just don't want them involved at all, the other Exec wants to "wash his hands", and i just need them to release the will and explain what will meet their criteria for getting it released.

It's that last bit that is unclear, despite repeated phone calls - basically the process by which THIS legal firm will release the will is totally unclear, and i'm not sure what's normal in the sector. It's all very "computer says no" which is bizarre from a client POV - i'd never get away with this BS in my own (professional) role.

You could apply for probate saying that the original of the will has been lost by the solicitor. Or at least, you could tell the solicitors you assume that they have lost it since they refuse to release it.

I managed to apply for probate without written confirmation from the second executor that he didn't want to be involved but I had the original will. Probate was granted with "reservation of benefit " meaning I can act alone. He couldn't stand down officially because he'd "intermeddled", ie stolen money from the estate!

I would instruct a different solicitor to request the will. You should be able to get a fixed fee, I've just paid £190 for a one hour session to discuss issues with the estate.

but I had the original will i think that's my issue here - the lawyer has the original. I only have the photocopy. Reservation of benefit would be fine here, but i think my co-Exec would prefer to step away entirely - he couldn't even understand what an Executor was when i tried to explain it, and he said he just thought my other parent could deal with it. They can't, they aren't the named Execs and there is a will saying so (i.e. me and him). It was all so overwhelming at a time when family is grieving, i'm so annoyed at the legal firm who my mum went to.

it's like they're pushing for ££s fees in legal advice when i don't need or want it.

i'd rather pay another legal firm to deal with them and spend 10x as much than give them a penny for probate services i do not want or need.

Have you approached the Law Society?

No, I haven't explored that option yet. I'll check it out.

There must be a norm in the sector (what happens when 2 joint Execs need a will released, what compliance and processes are followed), which most legal firms adhere to.. or guidelines... I'll check the law society and see what their role is. thanks.

I did find an article on lexisnexis which I'm trying to get access to for just this situation (i think i have access via my own employer), so TBC what that says too.

I applied for probate last year on the strength of a photocopied will (and got it). I instructed the solicitor to release the original copy to me and only provided my ID when I collected it. You don't need to be their client or pay them to release it. I would draft a short letter for your uncle confirming he rescinds the executor role, send it and ask him to sign and send it back. You should then be able to begin to deal with the estate.

Definitely don't let the solicitor bully you into paying money you don't need to or instructing them when it's unnecessary.

So it's clear that the Law Society are the route to funnel dissatisfaction with a legal firm to.. but only once a formal complaint has been raised (guide: www.lawsociety.org.uk/public/for-public-visitors/using-a-solicitor/complain-about-a-solicitor).

I'm currently reading to see where in the SRA it might cover behaviours around "don't push non-clients to use probate services that they don't want and refuse to release a will to a deceased client's Exec".. !

@lazarusb that's really helpful. I had no idea my photocopy might be enough to get the grant of probate.

www.gov.uk/applying-for-probate/if-theres-a-will#:~:text=You'll%20need%20to%20send,at%20their%20house

Find the original will - You’ll need to send the original will with your probate application - you cannot use a photocopy. The probate registry will keep the will and it’ll become a public record.

Crap. I've also just learned that I have 6 months to do the inheritance tax stuff. that's not going to happen/likely.

It is not on that they are refusing to send you the will. Your authority derives from the will itself, so you, along with the other executor, are entitled to it.

Complain to the senior partner.

The other executor should be able to sign a deed of renunciation- effectively resigning as executor- at which point the solicitor should be willing to deal with you alone. I'd ask them to confirm this and go from there. He will need to do a deed of renunciation in any event as otherwise he'll have to be involved down the line.

IHT on property and certain other assets can be paid in instalments- you can get probate after payment of the first instalment which then enables you to sell up and pay the rest due.

Surely that form have done their job and been paid for their services.

It speak to whomever is being so obstinate and ask them what their complaints procedure is.

I wouldn't waste any time with SRA or Law society at the moment .(unlikely at any moment TBH as they will exhaust you and not help .And expect any complaint to be backed up with evidence of court appearance standards which they will define )
As collaborate has said - raise it with senior partner or go to a different firm .
Good luck .
Did the deceased parent have a quirky sense of humour ?

Interesting but you definitely don't need a solicitor to deal with the estate. It can take them a few weeks to produce the original from archives - make a formal complaint to the partners now.

Are you able to blank out all names in the Will and then upload the appointment of executors section of the Will. Alternatively would you be happy to type out precisely what it says, just for the bit that refers to executors (without anyone's name being included).

The only reason I would not be able speak to you (or release a copy of the Will) would be if the Will was drafted as follows:

"I appoint [NAME] as my sole executor but if he/she is not willing or unable to so act or if he/she shall have died in my lifetime then I appoint [NAME] as my sole executor"

Lots of Wills are drafted in this way. If you are definitely joint executors then I could speak to either of you with no trouble at all.

Also, if you did not live locally to our office (which most executors do not) then if you provided me with ID and a death certificate then I could provide you with a copy of the Will. If the executor/executors wanted the original document to be released then this could be done with the appropriate letter of authority signed by all of the executors.

Your uncle can renounce his right to probate using the form PA15. He can only renounce if he has not "intermeddled" with the estate.

Sorry for the third post on this but the Will does not belong to the firm of solicitors holding it. They are simply holding the document on behalf of their client. Once the client has died then the authority to have possession of the original Will passes to the named executors. They cannot simply refuse to deal with this. Whether they want the work, or not, is irrelevant. They cannot force named executors into using their services.

I am going to a solicitor tomorrow to collect my Mums will as the Probate office have asked for the original . My brother is joint executor and he is coming too but I was told if he couldn’t I needed a letter from him and a copy of his ID

In your shoes I'd type up a formal letter from Uncle relinquishing his executorship due to age. Make two copies. Write and stamp two envelopes, one to you one to the lawyers.

Send to uncle, ask him to sign both, put one in each envelope and post.