Joint Executors - lawyer impeding probate/blocking release of will

[BreadwinneBaker]

Hi all,
I'm in an interesting situation with a parent's will. I'm not a lawyer but have been an Executor before in various English estates and due to my job I'm fairly good at navigating bureaucracy/admin proceses.

A parent of mine recently died and a copy of the will contained at home stipulates that I and my sibling are the beneficiaries. As expected. However, the joint Executors are me plus my uncle.

I live in Scotland my uncle is in England, he's elderly and digitally excluded, doesn't know how to use email, text message or have any proper ID (i.e. no passport, no DVLA photocard, just a bus pass, and is barely literate - cannot write a letter of instruction, has refused to put a pen to paper to write a single paragraph saying he wishes to step back etc). He verbally and strongly confirmed he wants to "wash his hands" of any involvement in being Executor, is very stressed at the idea of being named on a legal document, and I want to take it on myself as it's a simple estate involving a small house (assets well under the IHT threshold etc). It's really not that complicated at all.

I have contacted the legal firm who did the will weeks ago to try and kick off getting the grant of probate.

Unfortunately, they have been quite opaque and are not helping to clarify next steps. They would not provide me or my co-Exec a copy of the official will (I just have the copy found at the house) or let me travel to England to see the will in their office. They will not let me make an appointment to prove my ID. They basically are saying until my co-Exec steps back, or "makes an appointment" and written instruction to let them release the will to me (which i've no idea how to engineer, short of travelling down to his house, writing up a letter and letting him sign it literally then and there) they cannot engage with me as "I am not their client". Whenever I speak to them, they keep pushing the idea of using their probate services within the firm for a fee (which I don't need or want).
Is this a normal legal approach when you have joint Execs?

It's the first time I've been an Exec with a joint Exec who functionally is unable to perform the role. And I've done it alone. Without any issues, even on a complex estate where the original house conveyancing wasn't all in order. But this time the whole process is really distressing and my parent's house just sitting empty over the recent cold snap is stressing me out - I don't see how I can move forward with getting the grant of probate in order to sell the house unless a miracle happens.

What is the NORMAL route to getting a will released on an English estate where there are co-Execs who don't live locally for a joint face to face office visit to the lawer?

Here is the will text:

"I appoint my daughter (my name) of (my address) and my brother (uncle name) of (his address) to be my Executors and Trustees."
Redacted image of this: ibb.co/4t65ywy

Is there likely to BE any inheritance tax? If the estate is small enough there won't be.

They do not own the will document. You have not instructed them so you are not their client so don’t have a recognised relationship (ie one you use to raise a complaint against them) with them.

As far as I know/have experience of, a solicitor keeps signed wills in their safe (or a drawer etc) on behalf of the person who instructed them to draft the will then hope they get to take care of the estate for ££££. They do not have definite instructions to deal with the estate and as an executor you have the right to instruct whichever solicitor you want to OR to deal with the estate yourself.

If they say they cannot release the will to you then get them to show you the authority for their statement. If they want your uncle’s signature, ask why they need it and get them to quote legislation/guidance/case law etc.

My guess is they just want you to instruct them and not look into what they’re saying too much but challenge the buggers on everything they say!

This has been really helpful. thank you all. i've taken this to writing and sent the lawyer in question an email asking for clarity on why i'm blocked from doing anything to get the will released until my co-Exec has made his mandatory appointment to discuss "options".

I'll let you know how it goes.

Thank you again, it has clarified at least there is no obvious legal restriction or block that has to happen.

i'm increasingly upset at how much of a faff this has been, my mum would be turning in her grave at the stress this legal firm have added to an already shitty time.

hi - to answer the IHT tax question, no. i don't think there will be any tax to PAY. i just need to do the calc and official submission. her estate will be around the £120k mark including all assets e.g. house.

You need to complete this form and get your uncle to sign it so you are then sole executor: assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/990698/PA15_0421_save.pdf

But I've offered to sort a pa15 form for my uncle, they said they'd need to see his I'd and get an appointment in person

also, isn't the PA15 form for the probate process (which i can't start, since i can't get the official will released)? i.e. i'm one step further back than that anyway.

It's very easy to do the IHT form on line then it pops up and says you have nothing to pay. There's an error with the probate system at the end of the application- it tells you to post the original will and an IHT form. I used the online chat and they confirmed only the Will was needed.

They are trying to force you to sign up to let them do the probate, definitely no need from the sounds of things. Also, the will now 'belongs' to the executors once the client has passed, they cannot refuse to hand over the original once they've verified the trustees.

what i don't understand is.. this hard sell has pushed me firmly into the "i'm not paying them a penny/i'd rather give a lawyer 10x to get it off them". if they'd been more open and transparent i may well have been more open to actually using part of their services during this process.

another thing now i remember it - they said they'd only release the will to me in person at the end of all this. i live hundreds of miles away. if i end up being able to get the will, why can't they just post it signed for and billed to me?

what would happen if i lived in Australia?

surely modern times mean we don't all just live in the same village and deal with this in person?

If your uncle has executed PA15 in front of an independent witness and you are the sole executor then they should release the original will to you so you can take matters forward. It feels like they are being unnecessarily difficult given you have explained the distance/age issue.

I've specifically asked in writing now if a PA15 form, completed by him (he can sign) and witnessed.. would be sufficient. let's see what they say. thank you again all. super helpful, i've been tearing my hair out at the lack of clear next steps on this.

If they continue to refuse to release the will or insist that you call in person, complain to the senior partner.

You absolutely do not have to have the will released in person. Once ID has been verified then the will can be securely sent to wherever you ask. I work in a law firm and we deal with probate and have a safe full of original wills that are being held onto until needed. But I've never heard of one of our lawyers behaving like this lot!

I'm not clear in this case whether the problem is with the solicitor being difficult - or with your uncle not writing to them to renunciation his position.

When my father died a few years ago, all four of his children were named as executors. Two didn't want to do it for various reasons (one of them lived in the USA. They had to write individually to the solicitor renouncing their interest and asking for the original copy of the will to be released to me. The other sibling and I also wrote, to ask if the will could be released to me.

As soon as they had received all four letters, the solicitors sent me the will in the post. None of us lived anywhere near the solicitor so it would have been a nuisance to have to go there in person.

Interesting, almost immediate response from the lawer:

I require one of the following:
1. Joint instructions and ID from both you and UNCLE attending the Office at the same time in which case I can release the Will without any charge...
2. A signed letter of authority from one of you to confirm that you are happy for me to release the Will to the other...
3. A request through a firm of Solicitors to request the Will directly in which case I can send the Will to the Solicitors if they confirm that they are acting on behalf of the Executors of the Estate.
4. yes a PA15 would be sufficient so all I would then need is your ID and for you to attend the Office to sign the Will collection form.

To reiterate thus far, your email seems to suggest that there is a blockage with us. To be absolutely clear, that is not the case. I have not received clear instructions from both you and UNCLE and as such, I am unable to release the Will until such time as I receive clear instructions. It appears that the communication between you and your co-executor does not reflect the communication which I am receiving and as such, if I do not receive clear instructions within the next two weeks then I will have no option other than to lodge the Will with the Probate Registry.

Option 1 isn't practical due to my living hundreds of miles away / uncle being elderly etc. - he also isn't comfortable writing a letter and I think that's what the major issue has been here, despite trying to go into the lawyer's office "to sign something to wash his hands" (he didn't understand what that might look like, but the lawyer also didn't explain it).

So it seems the PA15 form suggestion (I can print it, as uncle has no computer, post it to him after filling out the basics, Uncle signs and returns to me) could work.

Or i just let this time out and it goes to the Probate Reg for me to retrieve next.

The latter is more efficent.

OP. If I had two executors named on a Will then I would accept a handwritten letter from one of the executors confirming their approval to release the original Will to the other named executor. I would also require ID for both executors and sight of an original death certificate (not a photocopy).

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that your uncle cannot sign the PA15 now. He does not want to be involved and has stated as much. He can renounce now. You do not have to wait until you start the probate application.

If the person lives in England and their assets are in England then you do not have to complete an Inheritance Tax account (IHT400) if the net value of the estate is less than £325,000. There are other reasons why you might need to complete an IHT400, for example if there is a gift with reservation, but nothing you have said here indicates that you do need to fill in a 400.

You don't even have to complete the shorter form IHT205 either (if the deceased died on or after the 1st January 2022) . You just put in the gross and net figures for Inheritance Tax and then the net and gross figures for probate purposes. These figures are usually the same, unless there are joint assets.

So this leaves you with how to obtain the Will. I would put in a formal, written complaint (by email if you wish) to the senior or managing partner or to the head of private client with that firm. It is simply not acceptable to keep brushing you off. You might not be a client but you are an executor of a Will that they are holding and they have to tell you their procedure for the release of that Will.

OP - Is there any chance that your uncle is telling you one thing and the solicitors something different?

Do you have to wait until Probate has been granted to sort out IT? I’m not executor of my mums estate ( thank goodness 2 of my siblings got that job) but we inherit equally. There were delays in applying for Probate as my siblings had to complete some tax returns on the rental income from mums house first, we rented out the house to part pay mums care home bills.

Mum died at the end of April last year, the probate forms were sent off papers in September and we are still waiting! So six months has long passed but we were told that we just needed to apply for probate within six month, no pay any IT - none will be due though as mum was a widow so has dads allowance as well as her own.

wow that seems a really odd response from the solicitors ,I'm waiting with baited breath for comments from the experts on here .

This isn't relevant to the OP but my brothers will is being dealt with not by solicitors but by a firm that does estate admin and handles probate .

By comparison they seem positively gung ho when it comes to releasing a will and to the status of executors .I just got sent a .‘powers reserved letter',apparently something they send to all executors who haven’t directly instructed them and then proceed with the one executor who had taken it upon themselves to contact them .

Odd there's such a difference .

OP - Is there any chance that your uncle is telling you one thing and the solicitors something different?

Not a chance no.

my uncle is very old, not digital, had no idea what an "executor" was when approached. He is actually quite stressed at being on a bit of legal paperwork and being accountable for doing something here. We have a strong suspician in the family that he is illiterate, hence the unwillingness to write a letter to the lawyer - has no computer. Hence why i'd suggested he go in person to the office of the laywer and sign a statement in person. He doesn't even have photo ID that meets their stipulation anyway- he has no photo DVLA license. No passport. He only has a bus pass. He doesn't even live that close to where my parent died, and cares fulltime for a relative himself.

It was quite the trek that he went into their office in person, only to be turned away and told to make an appointment.

I can't empahsize enough how illogical it is that he was named as Executor (especially since he isn't a beneficiary either). He is entirely well meaning but unfit to deal with the estate.

4. yes a PA15 would be sufficient so all I would then need is your ID and for you to attend the Office to sign the Will collection form.

This is your option here. Just travel to see your uncle and get him to sign the PA15 and then take it to the solicitor's office and get the will. Yes, it's a pain in the arse but just get it over and done with.

Surely option 2 is the easiest.

Could you make life simpler for your uncle by typing out a letter and sending it to him, along with an envelope addressed to the solicitor?

All he would have to do is sign the letter and put it in the envelope and send it off.