Help with suggesting contact

[Legalwomble]

Currently I am due back in court in Nov, this has gone on for a year as there is a DV history and safeguarding concerns. NRP currently does not have overnights, but took me to court for 50% which I don’t want, the children don’t want (as told to Cafcass in a Sec 7, they are happy to see him, one would like to see him a bit more, one refuses to see him, but currently none want to stay) I get the feeling the Judge doesn’t want, but here we still are. It’s not in the childrens best interests at all.

I have to put forward a suggestion for contact going forward and I’m struggling a bit.

Ex claims he works minimal hours, this is not true, he actually works upwards of 45 hrs per week, but he is paid the majority in cash (long story) and always has, which actually makes his 50/50 requests completely unworkable really. He will be planning to simply pass caring onto a member of his family, including his half of the holidays (when we were married his children from his first marriage were left with me for his entire half of the holidays every single time so I know what he does). I can get a Private Detective to prove this if it’s absolutely necessary, but simple economics would show that he can’t run a house, pay bills, feed himself etc on £600 pm.

I work term time and always have, always been Primary carer, children have lived solely with me for the last few years, I do all the grunt work of parenting, every single bit of it, and I am the kids secure base.

Anyway, I know the Court is going to be looking for overnights, as they have mentioned it and my suggestion was going to be every other Saturday from 11am to Sunday 7pm and one night in the week for dinner 4.30-7pm.

I am struggling over holidays. The children want to be with me Christmas Day (I am ok with a shared one but they are set against it) so I had thought maybe Xmas Eve 10-6pm, Xmas day with me then Boxing Day 11am to 28th 6pm so he gets a few days?

I don’t know what to suggest re school holidays. He is not available for 50% of them, but he will continue to lie that he is, then the kids will suffer, because they will be sat at his with random family members “looking after them”

I didn’t know if I should suggest up to 2 weeks in the Summer to take them away, but I don’t know what to suggest over half terms etc, as I will be off work and he will not be!

I wanted it written in that if he is not available to care for them then they return home to me?

Can anyone help a bit with this? I also have an 11 yr old who refuses to see him, despite encouragement, so I’d thought I would say for her to be included on the order, and her to have the choice to join (I think if he would stop trying to force her and this settles down she will start to see him, but he is of the opinion that I must make her I presume by physically dragging her out)

I accept he will get overnights, but I have raised safeguarding concerns (hence Cafcass) so I don’t now want to be “oh yeah, it’s fine, have them overnight” etc.

I represent myself, and I’m finding this a stumbling block really, so any help is appreciated

What are the s7 recommendations?

At the time, they recommended a fact finding, but the Judge refused that, but Cafcass said contact to stay the same (no overnight) until a fact finding was done. That’s how it’s been for a year so far.

Now I’m waiting on an Addendum Sec 7 (I think that’s it) to make further recommendations I assume.

I will need to do a statement saying what I agree/disagree with in the report and where I think access should be going, so I want to have a reasonably clear idea in my head beforehand.
I think the children will tell Cafcass (those who see him) that they are happy to see him an extra evening each week but not stay there, but it was clear that the court were looking towards “when” overnights could be started.

Also, if by some miracle he gets 50/50 then how do I ensure costs are split 50/50?
currently he refuses to pay maintenance and part of this is to prevent himself having to pay it at any point, but I know him, every bit of uniform I buy will end up at his, he won’t pay half for uniform, he will always be “going” to give me the money and clubs they want to do he will say aren’t necessary so therefore if I want them to do it then that is my cost.
Frankly, it will be a new way to abuse me financially, so I really need to get this watertight

Wait and see what the recommendations from cafcass are and work from there.

@JustAnotherLawyer2 my worry is that I only have 10 days from receipt of the report to actually get a statement in with all the points addressed. Either way I’m trying to work out what my bottom line is on access

Courts don’t necessarily agree to 50/50 as it’s too disruptive for school and weekend activities snd friendships. If DC are at school and at secondary school, they will have to be listened to. Refusing an overnight stay might be unreasonable but it’s a big leap to go from an overnight stay to 50/50. You need to probe the logistics of that won’t work for the children.

Yes. Wait for the report. I think drilling down into exact times for Christmas and where uniform ends up isn’t really what the court wants to hear because it’s your issues. It’s possible that the interests of the children might be more important. Therefore I would think along the lines of school continuity, card when they are with him, practicalities did them regarding friendships and activities, stability and their preferences. The court may we want an overnight so think if this can be accommodated. What night and how often. Being reasonable instead of negative is probably best and don’t say things that irk you. It’s about what is best for DC and they need to remember their uniform!!!

I don't know where you get your research terroir but all the research I have read shows improved outcomes for shared care children I assume this is in situations where both parents are capable/

It's becoming more common to have shared care these days thankfully. I don't see the issues with school with a week on and a week off.

My toddler has been with me for 9 days and is completely fine and settled as she is used to shared care.

I think the school argument is just excuse making.

I hope if my daughter has children and separates with their dad she can have shared care so she can focus on her career and her own me time.

Yes you can request first refusal for you to care for the DC over him using childcare.

Why haven't you gone to CMS to get some maintenance?

He works cash in hand and doesn't declare then report to HMRC.

i have a DV background and court experience with ex too , DS absolutley didn’t want to stay over just wanted to visit and court took this seriously for a year and then we mutually agreed to progress as he got older , we now do eow but on the basis that if ds is distraught and wants to come home he gets brought home and it works well for us as we are now working together to try and make this easy for ds however about holidays we do fathers with him mother day with me , Birthday just whoever’s day it falls on, Easter and summer etc as normal eow and xmas we do with me xmas eve till 1 on xmas day then with dad from 1 on xmas till dinner time Boxing Day , that way we are both getting xmas day with him and he’s happy with that

Thanks everyone
@Skeptadad 50/50 won’t work. Simple as that. He is abusive and this is to continue the abuse
@RandomMess I have recently involved the CMS, I’m waiting to hear back but I imagine I will end up going to an appeal. I have twice reported the set up and twice nothing appears to have come of it.
@TizerorFizz I actually agree with you, these are not toddlers and they have a very set life and routine with me, he will actually be like a hand grenade going off in their lives and it would be incredibly disruptive to them.
@Thatboymum what do you do with school holidays? Does your ex book a holiday and your Ds goes with him, or does he not do holidays? I’m fine with Mother’s Day/Fathers day and I’m good with the split Christmas Day (although the dc aren’t) but he is pushing for half of all holidays, despite him actually being at work and me not being at work. Also, historically, holidays when we were a family did not work out well due to his behaviour towards me or sometimes the dc and I am actually concerned at the thought of him away with them for 2 weeks if I am homest

@Skeptadad
These children have a settled routine at school. You also assume parents can do the school run effectively. Many cannot. It is disruptive to older Dc and, with respect, you haven’t got there yet! Children do have opinions on what they want and how their lives are organised. Going to 59/50 from no nights with dad isn’t really likely. DC are not to be the pawns in adult parental arguments and some parents are simply not good enough. There is no evidence that each case is not determined on its merits. It’s not a quota system.

If there's a section 7 and no finding of fact the courts don't view him as a domestic abuser or they consider that whatever abuse you have stated is irrelevant.

So you might think shared care isn't appropriate but the courts don't consider the abuse to be a barrier to arrangements.

Interesting in my own case the fact my ex is still calling me an abuser is now working in my favour as it's emotionally harmful for children to have a parent labelled as such.

Tizer form what I have read academic outcomes and quality of life outcomes are better for shared care children. What do you make of that? Do you think that's because shared care is generally by mutual consent and both parents are pulling together? I'm curious.

DD is a family barrister and she tells me the courts take a stable family life into account for school age children. That includes access to their school, seeing their friends, doing sports (etc) and being happy. They will consider what the children would like if they are older and not coerced. A baby or toddler doesn’t have a view.

Yes, I do think arrangements with no arguments are better for children but parents think court is solely about what they want irrespective of the children involved. Each individual case is about individual children, not stats that don’t apply to many cases.

Also some parents lives miles and miles apart. 50/50 would be difficult and not in the interests of the children if long commutes are introduced and work issues are present around school arrival and collection time. It’s not all black and white and why should it be 50/50 if it’s not workable or acceptable to the children?

That is not to say that DC must spend more time with mum or dad. But where DC live for the majority of the time (which could be a small majority) is usually a pragmatic decision based on what’s best for DC with neither parent being shunted out.

I do need to make clear I don’t discuss any individual cases with DD. Just general points as she sometimes needs a chat!

I know that's what your daughter says who works as a barrister that's one thing and I understand your perspective. I am just curious as to why there's a disparity between what you are telling me and the academic literature. I am not looking at individual cases but exam results, mental illness, job prospects and other negative life experiences.

Shared care is still a minority thing with 93% of children living with one parent. But shared care works well in Scandinavian countries where children have a lot of success with it.

My daughter will grow up with shared care it's all she will ever know so she won't know what the alternative is so she will never miss it:

Both parents can get children to school and clubs I see that as a moot point. In fact in could be argued that social circles are expanded with shared care as there's more access to material and paternal social structures.

I would suspect that existing cases of shared care are disproportionately functional (but split) families. So no addiction issues, no violence, no abuse etc and that is what the literature is picking up on. In other words, there are some massively important variables here which the surveys you are reading don't or can't measure. If they draw on the various cohort studies or Understanding Society then the parenting measures are pretty basic, mainly because they measure so many other things as well.

Put it another way, children not in shared care may be more likely to be traumatised by DV, living in poverty or victims of abuse, which the literature you are reading doesn't measure but which have a massive impact on exam results etc.

Just a guess, Skeptadad, because this isn't my area but I'd expect any halfway decent sociologist to be seeking alternative explanations.

@Skeptadad
Do not let your very strong preferences for the status quo override what DD might want in the future. Just because your arrangement works for you, don’t assume it will always work for her. It should not be incapable of being changed (either way!) according to the needs of your DD. You should consider practicalities as well as hard won “ownership”. DD will meet other DC with alternative arrangements and might like to be like those DC.

@Legalwomble with school holidays like Easter and summer we just continue as normal so every other weekend fri to sun tho he tends to be brought home on Saturday as dad now values ds input where he didn’t before he assumed it was me who was being difficult and not ds until we had civil contact in place which I know is very hard to get to where dv is concerned. Dad has other younger children in his home so isn’t quite at the holiday abroad stage so for now is happy to continue on the usual every other weekend pattern as we feel it gives ds continuity and a bit more stability as he needs routine, he has once taken ds about an hour away for a uk holiday but day two into it he had to bring ds home as he was so unsettled (he’s 4) I think we won’t face the struggles of holidays until school age and I’d have no issue with a week abroad or whatever as long as ds was happy. It’s extremely hard to get to a point where it’s amicable and everybody is on the same page but so worth it if you can manage it. My ex didn’t fight for any mid week contact as he works away all week and agreed it wouldn’t be in sons best interest for step mum to do any of the running about in his absence ( ironically I hate my ex but love ds step mum to bits and would never hesitate to ask for support from her if i needed it but would never ask my ex🤣

I don't think it's fair to make assumptions about me as your personal perspective is that shared care is not in a child's best interest. If it were the case that shared care weren't sometimes the best option and legal proceedings were indeed formulaic with pre-determined outcomes already known your daughter wouldn't have a job as we would be applying your paradigm to all families.

I don't know what I have done to make you think I can't look after my daughters welfare aside from disagree with you but that has nothing to do with my ability to prioritise my child's needs.

LGmum I see what you mean very few shared care families are constructed in court. I imagine a majority of the 7% of shared care families are by consent far outside of court. When a family has enters the domain of court communication and mutual willingness to work together has reached crisis point so difficult to run shared care. So a majority of the 7% are likely professional middle class families where both parents are working and children have access to all the resources they need.

@Skeptadad
You mostly post about you. I’m just adding in the possibility your child might not end up agreeing with you. It happens.

I didn’t say all shared care doesn’t work! I know where it does, especially when parents live near each other and can afford to maintain two houses with sufficient bedrooms. Cost and availability of housing is also an issue for many where there’s more than one child. Your perspective doesn’t take all scenarios into account. Just yours.

@Skeptadad they may well consider my abuse irrelevant, but they do not consider his incidents of abuse to the children, or his trying to bend them to his will or the safeguarding concerns I have as irrelevant at all. As an aside, the DV was witnessed by the children, so I’m not labelling him as anything, they have seen what he did.
Hence why he still has the same access several court appearances down the line.
For you 50/50 works great (though your ex may have a slightly different outlook on it) but for us it will not.
He is not capable of the school run, the few times he did do it he was late, and he required a phone call to remind him to go. You can praise 50/50 all you want, but in my case I won’t, and I will battle it every step of the way. The children do not want it, I do not think it’s good for the children, they are not toddlers and the impact on them would be horrendous.

Thankyou @TizerorFizz its heartening to see you daughter says the things I am thinking and Thankyou @Thatboymum thats very helpful.

I think where both parents have reasons why 50/50 works for them, that’s fine. That it doesn’t work for others seems to be outside their individual knowledge! However all aspects of parenting should be considered and the needs of the Dc, not the parents, are paramount. So one view doesn’t suit all.

Well you are contradicting yourself TizerorFizz as you are saying "one view doesn't suit all" and then saying you can't have shared care because of school runs.

Yes I talk about myself a lot but do you think a district judge/social workers give shared care of a toddler to someone who shows no concern for a child's welfare? Do you also think, and I will be gender specific, that a dad who cannot priorities a toddlers welfare is going to spend half their existence playing shopping games over and over again for half their lives? You have a daughter, know many men who are self-centered that could bring up a toddler by themselves with no support? Course not.

They also consider alleged abuse of your children irrelevant legalwomble if you haven't had a finding of fact the court has either discarded the alleged abuse as irrelevant or mild enough not to hinder any contact arrangements or you didn't press for a finding of fact. That's just how it's seen in court or maybe you have had a finding of fact about child abuse. I don't know I am reading between the lines.

Maybe it isn't appropriate in your situation legalwomble I don't know. I am saying shared care in normal situations is known academically to provide better outcomes than sole parent households. Everyones situation is different that's why we have a court system and judges.