Help with suggesting contact

[Legalwomble]

Currently I am due back in court in Nov, this has gone on for a year as there is a DV history and safeguarding concerns. NRP currently does not have overnights, but took me to court for 50% which I don’t want, the children don’t want (as told to Cafcass in a Sec 7, they are happy to see him, one would like to see him a bit more, one refuses to see him, but currently none want to stay) I get the feeling the Judge doesn’t want, but here we still are. It’s not in the childrens best interests at all.

I have to put forward a suggestion for contact going forward and I’m struggling a bit.

Ex claims he works minimal hours, this is not true, he actually works upwards of 45 hrs per week, but he is paid the majority in cash (long story) and always has, which actually makes his 50/50 requests completely unworkable really. He will be planning to simply pass caring onto a member of his family, including his half of the holidays (when we were married his children from his first marriage were left with me for his entire half of the holidays every single time so I know what he does). I can get a Private Detective to prove this if it’s absolutely necessary, but simple economics would show that he can’t run a house, pay bills, feed himself etc on £600 pm.

I work term time and always have, always been Primary carer, children have lived solely with me for the last few years, I do all the grunt work of parenting, every single bit of it, and I am the kids secure base.

Anyway, I know the Court is going to be looking for overnights, as they have mentioned it and my suggestion was going to be every other Saturday from 11am to Sunday 7pm and one night in the week for dinner 4.30-7pm.

I am struggling over holidays. The children want to be with me Christmas Day (I am ok with a shared one but they are set against it) so I had thought maybe Xmas Eve 10-6pm, Xmas day with me then Boxing Day 11am to 28th 6pm so he gets a few days?

I don’t know what to suggest re school holidays. He is not available for 50% of them, but he will continue to lie that he is, then the kids will suffer, because they will be sat at his with random family members “looking after them”

I didn’t know if I should suggest up to 2 weeks in the Summer to take them away, but I don’t know what to suggest over half terms etc, as I will be off work and he will not be!

I wanted it written in that if he is not available to care for them then they return home to me?

Can anyone help a bit with this? I also have an 11 yr old who refuses to see him, despite encouragement, so I’d thought I would say for her to be included on the order, and her to have the choice to join (I think if he would stop trying to force her and this settles down she will start to see him, but he is of the opinion that I must make her I presume by physically dragging her out)

I accept he will get overnights, but I have raised safeguarding concerns (hence Cafcass) so I don’t now want to be “oh yeah, it’s fine, have them overnight” etc.

I represent myself, and I’m finding this a stumbling block really, so any help is appreciated

@Skeptadad it wasn’t alleged abuse of the children. Please do not use that word, my abuse and their abuse is not “alleged” it happened.
The reason they did not do a fact finding is not because they doubt it, but because the children were the witnesses and we would have had a situation whereby they would have had to give some form of evidence against their dad. This was considered too much for them.
It was abuse and it was reported, by them, to Cafcass, and Cafcass are concerned enough to have no overnights. There are also undertakings, so I think the Court has taken it pretty seriously actually.

I think my children will do far better the less time they spend with their father, but what would I know? Your ex may well believe your child would be better off spending less time with you.

@Legalwomble
I would set out what is reasonable. Set out why continuity of living with you and visiting arrangements work as they are. Explain how the organisation of school runs and how DC are settled snd doing well (I hope). Do say they wish to maintain local friendships and socialising, that they like the current arrangements and how they benefit from a stable home life. Make what you say positive.

Don’t just complain about Dad. Make it clear DC are not happy about overnights but that they would continue with visits as at present. I don’t know what other support you will get but don’t coach DC into taking a position against dad. It’s possible he’s flying a kite but keep the best interests of DC at heart.

When CAFCASS are concerned they use contact centres and they use contact centres far too much.

PF12J would have kicked in if there were concerns.

I am playing devils advocate here and maybe your ex is satans scrotum but rejection of a parent is rare unless there has been severe abuse or alienation.

The parent isn’t being rejected. It’s a disagreement over nighttime stays. That’s not the same. OP must not alienate DC but they are allowed to have views on what they would like.

Others would not agree with you over contact centres.

@Skeptadad im aware that you simply will not have this, however, Cafcass have interviewed all the children, one is happy to see him a bit more, but not stay over at the moment, one is fine with how much they see him and one decided about 8 months ago not to see him as he broke promises to them and she decided enough was enough. She is 10 and I’ve had her have counselling and Cafcass spoke to her and said she was quite able to vocalise her thoughts. I am quite confident that once this is over and the pressure is off she will decide to see him again and I have voiced that opinion. I may also add, he has done absolutely nothing to try to mend bridges with her.
No one mentioned alienation, I have not alienated the children, but the set up here has been for quite some time that mum is their safe place, and dad lets them down (not my words, actual facts)

That's just nonscence Legalwomble contact centers are routinely used in family court cases. Whilst you may not agree with me PD12J does.

Hopefully you get things resolved in a way that's right for your children then legalwomble.

What is nonsense? You seem to have a great deal of insight into my life and set up here.

Please bear in mind that you currently deal with a toddler, who may yet go on to have opinions over who they live with that may not fall into the opinions you have.

That is the case here. Two of mine have an opinion that is listened to, they have reasons for that opinion, but you do seem to feel you know far better than me the situation I am in.

@Legalwomble
I would ignore the posts from the dad above. It is very different having a toddler who has not experienced so much more and absorbed more too. A toddler has basic needs but cannot express views. Older children have school and friends, can form opinions and express them. Children usually like the stability of one main home. Two accommodating comfortable homes can be great but not too far apart so parties and meeting friends becomes difficult. It’s always interesting that children become like record collections in the old days. Split up half and half with arguments over who gets the whole Bob Dylan collection! Not human beings with feelings. Keep doing what’s best for the children.

@TizerorFizz thankyou.
I think I am doing the right thing. If my ex was a different person and dad then 50/50 would work, but he isn’t a different person or dad and 50/50 will open huge problems for not only the children, but me, as he will be able to continue his abuse of me, just via the children instead.
I actually can’t think of any positives, in my situation, for him having them 50% of the time.

wish you all the best @Legalwomble
you sound very child centred and reasonable. Judges tend to go with S7 recommendations and if they depart for them are legally obliged to give specific and legally valid reasons for doing so. Your ex sounds self absorbed and is probably doing himself no favours with this. He might be warned that a subsequent vexatious application might warrant the court to consider a barring order.

try to ignore the individual that derails as many threads in this section as possible. It’s literally all about them.

childlawadvice.org.uk/information-pages/the-welfare-checklist/

@Legalwomble have you been told about this or are you familiar with it?

@Whiskeypowers i do know of it, I tried to do my last position statement around it.
it’s not that I don’t think he should see them, it’s just they aren’t keen on overnights, there are issues with him and the children and I’m just trying to not share it as much as possible.
50% is great on paper, it’s great with two parents moving in the same direction, but when it’s the last weapon in your exs arsenal to get at you and not actually at all about the children, it’s a worry.
I’ve worked hard against a lot of odds to give them a settled childhood and he is just going to destroy that for them

Sorry, no glasses on, I meant to say “I’m trying to mitigate it as much as possible!”

@Skeptadad

docs.iza.org/dp6965.pdf

You might find this interesting - they took a slightly different approach, and examined the effects of separated families, based on how far away the non-residential parent lived (against a background of a Scandinavian culture where shared care is the legal norm) - they found that the further away the non-resident parent lived, the better the educational and behavioural outcomes were for the child. There is a suspicion it is to do with conflict between parents.

It's worth a read.

I found it when I was trying to solve a similar problem to OP's - my ex was claiming to want 50/50 when it clearly wasn't possible, and our (primary aged) children were un-interested in overnights or significant amounts of contact.

OP, do you engage with your ex? I've found total disengagement to be key in everyone's best mental health - particularly with the visits, I was clear that whilst I would encourage, I wouldn't force the children to go with him, that if he wanted to force them, it would be him dragging them out of the house, not me pushing them - and luckily he realised that that wasn't a good way to build a relationship with them. I am sure that my grey-rocking, refusing to discuss anything but absolute practicalities around the children and nothing else is instrumental in this - I'm no fun to screw around with, so he's given up trying.

@QuinkWashable
We were trying to move on from the 50/50 approach of one poster!

Research and individual circumstances are not the same. These children will see their father but not overnight. No one is going to drag anyone to see a parent!

To go back to your original question - I think your proposal is okay and seems more than fair based on everything else you've said. Arguably, if it goes well, you could be open to agreeing to additional contact/overnights.

On the 50/50 thing - I think there's no doubt that outcomes for children are better when both parents are actively involved and competent parents. The reality however is that in many cases, 50/50 isn't practical because one parent is not willing/able to be a good parent. Often, that's a big part of why the relationship failed in the first place. And as a PP said, outcomes for children who are not 50/50 may well be negative because of trauma/abuse/financial problems as a result of the NRP's behaviour.

OP said (I think if he would stop trying to force her and this settles down she will start to see him, but he is of the opinion that I must make her I presume by physically dragging her out)

And I was pointing out that that does actually seem to be what some exes expect, including OPs, and by being clear about my boundaries on what I would be doing, or what he would have to do to 'make' our children see him.

And also that conflict seems to be the biggest driver of poor outcomes from what I've read - be that for shared care or not - and that my successful outcome has come from entirely disengaging with my ex - no matter the provocation, and asking if OP had done the same. I know that in another situation I am close to, the main carer tries her hardest, but is often unable to resist rising to the bait, and that, as understandable as it is, prolongs the issues as it gives these exes both ammunition and attention.

This is about overnight stays. When an arrangement is ok for DC then that’s fine and doesn’t need amending. Changing it for overnight stays or 50/50 when practicalities and needs of children are not considered is not ok. It’s not about wants of parents. It’s about needs of children. Disengaging often is not possible when the court is involved. A way forward has to be found. However some parents always want more to satisfy their needs as opposed to the needs of the children. Practicalities matter.

@Skeptadad It's widely acknowledged that the court often fails to order a fact finding when it is appropriate to do so... could you link to this literature you refer to that evidences the benefits of 50/50 where there is abuse and / or the against the child's wishes? Not all men apply to court because they want residence or indeed 50/50... some (not all) use the courts as forum to perpetuate abuse.

@Legalwomble Your case sounds very similar to mine.. The fact finding was clearly un-necessary as, similar to my case, the abuse, and it's impact on the children, was determined in the section 7. This will be considered in the contact ordered as it was in my case. As they say there are several ways to skin a cat, so please ignore those who say the abuse doesn't matter because there wasn't a fact finding. As others have said the courts are very unlikely to deviate from the S7 recommendations. The purpose of your statement is to outline your proposal, so think about what would work best for the children - not what you want or indeed what he wants. Given he's let them down in the past, it would be useful to propose what you feel the children can cope with and what he could / would stick to. You can build your statement with the recommendations of the current S7 in mind for for now. You should have an order that outlines the points the addendum S7 report is intended to cover. Once you receive the addendum report, you can finalize your statement. Just an FYI - they can decide to make no additional recommendations. The addendum S7 in our case was ordered as ex made counter demands in response to the section 7 - the report duly explored these but choose to make no additional recommendations.

@Legalwomble I also forgot to say, in terms of your 11 year old. The court will expect you to encourage her and employ all means of persuasion available to you. The court will not expect you to force her / drag her.

@Pinkyxx , yes, they haven’t disregarded the incidents with the children, that’s why his access has not increased from what I offered at the start, they are also loath to force the children into seeing him and staying there if they don’t want to. Cafcass did want a fact finding, they specifically asked for it, however, one of the biggest factors (and written in the notes) was that it would slow things down and the thinking seems to be to get things done quickly to ease the backlog.
I don’t agree with it, and was quite cross, but ultimately they still didn’t increase the access, so I hope some of my constant refusal to let this go has helped!

My ex asked for the addendum, I suspect because the original Section 7 didn’t really do him any favours, so I assume he’s hoping there will be a huge change.

I am pretty much going to update my last statement, but with the addition of how access has been going, the fact he will not adhere to the Undertakings over time and how he is still trying to coerce the children and how I think it should look going forward.

We rarely contact each other, but I’ve now several times had to message him over something to do with the children, such as something happening during his access time and asking if he is ok for that or would he rather I declined it as it’s his time (as an example) and each time he ignores me. He literally reads the text and will not answer me, on this occasion it took a MONTH to get a “yes” from him, I had the kids asking if they were going, I’d given him a timeframe I needed to know in and still he was a dick frankly. He then tried to gaslight me claiming he had never said yes, I had decided to agree to it without permission (I do everything via text so I can see he agreed!)
I can’t see how we can parent like that, if I can’t get him to say “yes that’s fine” or “no, that’s not fine” (which was all that was needed) then how can we go forward? The kids really wanted to go and I had them at me and I had to explain that it was his time and if he wouldn’t answer I couldn’t agree.
Thats not him focussing on the children at all, that’s him getting at me as he’s taken a stance that he won’t acknowledge anything I say or do.

I can’t imagine either mine or the kids lives if he was to get much more access if I am honest. It keeps me awake at night because he puts them in such awkward positions, he tells the eldest she doesn’t have to run it by me if she wants to see him more (she is very polite and would always let me know as in “are you ok if I see dad x day” as she knows I am on a budget over food etc, so I need to know who’s here etc, besides it’s a courtesy to me and she knows I wouldn’t say no) and he actively encourages the youngest to go against rules that she has had here for years when with him, such as she’s not allowed bubblegum until she’s older, but he will tell her that my rules don’t count here and of course she can have it. It’s not that I don’t appreciate different houses/different rules it’s that he is deliberately putting them in a position, she knows she’s not allowed bubblegum with me, he had no reason to give it to her beyond knowing she isn’t allowed it, then she’s torn because I’ve spent years saying no, now he’s saying of course she must have it and trying to get her to go against several years of ingrained rules. She is then pulled in two, as she doesn’t want to upset him.

Its very unfair on them to keep doing that, when they have lived with me as the sole carer for many years now, because they feel awkward and agree to things so he’s not angry, then come home stressing because they couldn’t say no. They do enjoy their time with him, it’s just they can see the whole time is spent trying to get one up on me

Also @Pinkyxx just seen your other post, I do try with the 11 year old. She knows it’s fine to see him, it’s fine to ring him, I check every time if she wants to go and always say “it’s fine with me when/if you want to see him” but I don’t really know what else I can do.
He has made no effort to mend this with her, in fact he has actually made it even worse with how’s he’s behaved so there is no chance of her coming round any time soon.
I respect her decision though, this does come at quite a cost to her as the others are showered with gifts etc and she is ignored just to show her how it is if she doesn’t give in

@Legalwomble gosh, the more detail you share the more I think you might be my ex's current wife?? I hear you on every single point. FWIW, my ex did / does exactly the same, he will not answer any message then makes up drama to try and make me look bad, he actively encourages DD to break rules that I have citing just like your ex does that my ''unreasonable'' rules don't count in his home, when she was little sweets were given by the fistful knowing I did not allow sweets (he even encouraged her to take some back & hide them at home.. ), he is not allowed to discuss contact with her yet repeatedly texts her / emails her / leaves her VMs trying to arrange contact on days which he is not allowed contact (i.e. school days). Endlessly putting her in difficult positions, deliberately undermining me at every turn.. she feels awkward all the time. Like you I encourage, offer extra contact, she can ring him any day / any time and have always agreed to whatever time suits to see him; but I will not force. He punishes her refusal to either attend or increase contact through various means including withholding social activities that fall on future contact times chased with the threat of physically forcing her if she refuses to attend ( excellent strategy with a teenage girl..). Tragically all this has done over the years is turn her willingness to spend limited time with him, with encouragement, to a situation where she resentfully goes to avoid further escalation (i.e. the physical forcing). Social services have tried several interventions with him to address his behaviour during contact, all have made it worse. Last time he tried to increase contact via the courts, all the above meant it actually reduced rather than increased as they were concerned at the impact contact was having on DD. She now has court ordered therapy to help her cope with the contact she wanted to keep the option to have. The older she gets the harder it is frankly.

I'm sorry you're going through this, and even more sorry for your children. You really can't do more than you're doing. It really couldn't work with 50/50 given his behaviour and your efforts will hopefully be seen as what they are: protective, aimed at sustaining contact while mitigating the impact of contact.

@Pinkyxx I hope I’m not!! I’m divorced now, it just seems there’s a lot of these men to go round 🤣

can I ask what your contact pattern was or did your ex get 50/50?

@Legalwomble phew!!! yes, sadly there seems to be a fair few. We landed in court originally because ex wanted residence and for his new wife to be DD's mother. I was awarded residence, and the court ordered 80/20 contact, so EOW during term time + a couple more days in the hols but never a long period away from home. Last time he tried to get 50/50 which was a couple of years ago, his contact was reduced to ~12% (to align with what DD was willing to do at that point).