Inheritance no will but house not sold

[Lavendersquare]

Hopefully I can explain this situation but it's complicated so please bear with me.

My father-in-law who's in his late 70's comes from a farming background in a rural part of the UK. Both of his parents died in the 1980's his father in 1985 followed by his mother in 1989. He was one of 4 and was the second youngest.

The family farm was passed to the eldest son on the death of his mother, none of the other children got anything, nothing at all. This wasn't unexpected it's traditional for farms to go to the eldest only and all the siblings just accepted this as 'the way it is'. The farm is an average size for the area and has 2 houses and outbuildings on it, if it was sold today it would be worth in the region of £1m.

Roll forward 30+ years and the eldest son who inherited the farm has died and his eldest son now runs it.

Father-in-law has recently been setting his own affairs in order and this has got him thinking of his parents and the fact that neither he nor his siblings inherited a thing.

He has discovered via a solicitor friend that neither his mother or father left wills or letters of administration. This has lead him to wonder if his parents died intestate and whether the estate should have been sold or at least him and other siblings benefitting in some way. My DH has told his dad that it's too late to do anything now and he should let it go, but FIL is determined to find out if there's anything that he can do.

So my question to MN is whether FIL can after all this time make any claim on the estate of his late parents? And whether the title of the land could actually have been passed to his eldest brother and then to his son without some proof that they had inherited it?

It depends firstly which part of the uk you are in as succession law and rules around timebar are different depending on which jurisdiction applies.

I'd say that after 30 years he has left his run a bit late. Even if the parents didn't leave wills, the farm has now been left to his nephew . If your FIL is intent on doing something, he'd be best advised to see a solicitor and find out what happened all those years ago.

@Fleur405 I can't say which part of uk it is as that would be outing.

What are the major differences between England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland?

Lavender what part is simply England Wales Scotland or N Ireland not outing but the law differs for each

How can it be outing to say which country you are in

You can check for wills/probate on .gov website. www.gov.uk/search-will-probate

What are the major differences between England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland?

There’s a decent amount of them; separate legal systems & precedents. If you can’t say which part of England, even just down to which one of the above, I think FIL will need paid legal advice instead.

It's in Northern Ireland.

Sorry OP I can’t help with it if you are in NI. What you will need to understand is:

1. Was there a will? In Scotland and E&W these are publicly accessible so probably the same in NI but I don’t actually know how you would go about it.

1. If no will, what were the intestate rules in force at the relevant time (I.e. when the farm passed to your FIL’s brother). From a quick search of legislation.gov it looks as though the following act may be relevant and still in force (but be aware that it may have been amended over time - Administration of Estates Act (Northern Ireland) 1955

1. What is the time limit for any challenge.

I am not an expert on Northern Ireland law. Your FIL needs to consult a solicitor if he wants certainty. However, if his mother's estate was distributed over 30 years ago, it is almost certainly far too late to challenge.

Knew this would be NI. Any farming families I know it's been the same set up, but to be fair siblings (like my mum) in days gone by have generally been offered a building plot for a house. Very old fashioned but it's to stop the land getting carved up into inconsequential slices you couldn't earn a living from.

I'm not a lawyer but any farming/will disputes I've seen reported on, the judge always takes into account who ran or worked on the farm with the expectation it would be passed on to them before the owner died. It wouldn't be as simple as "no will = equal split", especially now all this time has passed.

I only know the law for england and wales. Firstly was the mother's name on anything? If her name was on nothing then when Dad died intestate the first 270k goes to the wife, probably less in the 80s. The wife has a life interest in half the rest and half is divided equally amongst kids. If any property was held as joint tenants or money in joint accounts then the mother would have automatically got it as the above rule is only for assets in one name. If a property was tenants in common his half would count towards whatever the maximum a wife would get in an intestacy in the 80's. Even if everything was held joint tenants when the mother died the four children would have automatically inhearited in equal shares. When someone dies without a will and is not married all their property does not go to the eldest son !!

I checked the rules for Northern Ireland. It looks the same as the uk with children getting their parents assets in equal shares when there is no will. This is automatic. I am not aware of When the older farmer died was any paperwork actually done ? What do the deeds say ? If the eldest son did the paperwork he would have had to claim he was an only child to inhearit if their was no will.

If there was no wills then his brother did not inhearit the house legally he assumed the position of someone who inhearited the house because his siblings passively accepted 'that' is how things are done in farming families'. If the parents left an ordinary house would the siblings passively accept it should go to the eldest son ? You do realise the law is the same for everyone ? There do not appear to be special rules for farming families. Without a will the brother did not inhearit this property he inhearited one quarter. If he wrote a will his son got a quater. Even if he left his son the whole farm you canot leave what you do not own.

Following.

FIL needs to get a solicitor. He needs to find out who has their name on the deeds. Did elder brother do probate? If elder brother did do probate then he will have lied about being an only child. Did elder brother have any other children and leave a will? The Uk has intestacy laws and families never writing wills and collectively allowing the eldest to take over things does not work unless the other claimants sign documents renouncing their claim. While it was 30 years ago nephew may not be the legal owner. If my parents die and I tell my siblings I get their house because I am the oldest that means they think I am the owner but it does not make me the legal owner !

For the person who said too late to chalenge.. it would be too late to chalenge a will. You can chalenge an intestacy if you were excluded, for example if you are a girlfriend and got nothing when your boyfriend died with no will. This is not a question of a chalenge because FIL would have automaticall got a share when his parents died. This is a question of whoever did probate not following the law. He could sue for his legal share, because it is his property.

This is worth pursuing. It happened in my family and was used as a negotiating tool when a dispute occurred. Grandfather never made a will and when my grandmother died her will was not valid as she could not will the entirety of the property as she did not own it all in the first place. Two thirds to her one third to surviving children upon my grandfather's death. But it was never probated. So when she willed property to one child it was legally only what she inherited - her two thirds. There was no time bar. Succession Act applied- Southern Ireland. Each estate had to go through probate. Hope this helps. I am a solicitor by the way.

You can challenge an intestacy if you were excluded
So...if your father died intestate in 2003 and they are your father and on your birth certificate but you were illegitimate, you could contest 19 years later? (England)

Sounds like it could be a right old mess. If the eldest son handled the estate as the mother died intestate - did he lie to get probate through, did he pay inheritance tax at the time etc etc

Thank you all so much for the replies, lots to take in, I'll pass it all on to FIL.

@Thehouseofmarvels

For the person who said too late to chalenge.. it would be too late to chalenge a will. You can chalenge an intestacy if you were excluded, for example if you are a girlfriend and got nothing when your boyfriend died with no will. This is not a question of a chalenge because FIL would have automaticall got a share when his parents died. This is a question of whoever did probate not following the law. He could sue for his legal share, because it is his property.

My comment about it almost certainly being too late to challenge stands.

FIL did NOT automatically get a share when his parents died. He may have been entitled to a share under intestacy rules, but it would only have become his if and when the executor transferred title. If the executor transferred the entire title to FIL's older brother, there is a limited time in which FIL can reclaim his share. In England that is 12 years. I believe the limit in Northern Ireland is the same but, as I say, I am not an expert on Northern Ireland law.

@SequinsandStiIettos

You can challenge an intestacy if you were excluded So...if your father died intestate in 2003 and they are your father and on your birth certificate but you were illegitimate, you could contest 19 years later? (England)

No. Up to 12 years later, yes, but not after 19 years. Limitation Act 1980 S22.

12 years relates to squatters rights. However you have to apply for ownership by adverse possesion it is not automatic. You would need a lawyer to find out if any application for squatters rights had ever been made. If you extend your garden and use the extra land you can apply for squatters rights but if yoy have not you can not sell your house and garden and tell the new owner that the plot of land you aquired is going to be theres. In the same way the older brother did not get squatters rights automatically.

I also just read on the govenment website the legal owners must be notified of the adverse posession and hace the rigjt to oppose it and if they do the aplication may be rejected.