Inheritance no will but house not sold

[Lavendersquare]

Hopefully I can explain this situation but it's complicated so please bear with me.

My father-in-law who's in his late 70's comes from a farming background in a rural part of the UK. Both of his parents died in the 1980's his father in 1985 followed by his mother in 1989. He was one of 4 and was the second youngest.

The family farm was passed to the eldest son on the death of his mother, none of the other children got anything, nothing at all. This wasn't unexpected it's traditional for farms to go to the eldest only and all the siblings just accepted this as 'the way it is'. The farm is an average size for the area and has 2 houses and outbuildings on it, if it was sold today it would be worth in the region of £1m.

Roll forward 30+ years and the eldest son who inherited the farm has died and his eldest son now runs it.

Father-in-law has recently been setting his own affairs in order and this has got him thinking of his parents and the fact that neither he nor his siblings inherited a thing.

He has discovered via a solicitor friend that neither his mother or father left wills or letters of administration. This has lead him to wonder if his parents died intestate and whether the estate should have been sold or at least him and other siblings benefitting in some way. My DH has told his dad that it's too late to do anything now and he should let it go, but FIL is determined to find out if there's anything that he can do.

So my question to MN is whether FIL can after all this time make any claim on the estate of his late parents? And whether the title of the land could actually have been passed to his eldest brother and then to his son without some proof that they had inherited it?

@lavendersquare so essentially nobody has ever registered the land or properties ? No names, no proof of ownership nothing ? Who would have dealt with bank accounts, did brother take all personal possessions ?

Unless the land needs to be sold the fact that it is unregistered isn't really an issue, as others have said plenty of land and properties are unregistered in the uk but that doesn't mean that they aren't owned, just that the government doesn't have an official record of the owner.

So quite possibly the farm ownership has never been formalised, the nephew can start that ball rolling but would need to prove a few things first.

With regard to the nephew, as I said it was a family farm with several cottages and houses, all siblings used them when they visited so nephew has upset others as well as FIL over this.

@lavendersquare ah so if land is unregistered whoever happens to be using it at the time is the owner ? Is this right from a legal point of view @phr47bridges?

@lavendersquare would be need to prove he had lived there a long time ? It is a shame but maybe Nephew feels he only needs his immediate family, not everyone is that interested in more than their partner and kids. If he does not want anyone to visit and establishes ownership everyone would need to respect that sadly. Does he have children ? Even if he will not sell he could be setting his kids up for further legal issues if land is unregistered permanently. If he has more than one child what if one does not accept getting nothing ? Imagine if two daughters and the one with a son demanded her son should get it ?

@lavendersquare I looked inline and it looks like land aquired after 1998 by inhearitance legally should be registered with the land registry. I am assuming from your comments that Nephew inhearited before 1998? What year was it his Dad died ?

@lavendersquare can you check if there is anything on the land registry ?

@lavendersquare, could you look on the public wills register to see if FIL father's father had a will to see if that established FIL father's ownership, or if anyone who has owned it ever has a will. Or if brother had a will. I think you will need to go to a solicitor with all the paperwork you can find. It will be difficult if the land is unregistered and nobody has ever done any paperwork of ant sort, no wills or probate. Nephew will hate this any other people are suggesting FIL is horrible for upsetting him. However if you tell us he has kids then him dying could get very very messy. There is a good chance the next generation of nephews family might not agree that the eldest son gets everything. Even if you lot leave him alone it does not nesesarily mean this matter will be fine and people can infinately go on doing zero paperwork.

[quote Thehouseofmarvels]@Prh47bridges OP says she thinks the land is not registered ( since the old farmer died or perhaps op means necer registered?) and things have been done via informal agreements. What significance does this have for the 12 year rule? Does Nephew legally own the farm and properties if they are not registered? Would there be any difficulties if Nephew wanted to sell ? [/quote]
I can't answer that question for Northern Ireland. For England, it makes no difference at all. Yes, the nephew legally owns the farm and any other property if it is not registered - that answer applies to both England and Northern Ireland. There would be no difficulties if the nephew wanted to sell other than that the buyer would have to register the land.

so if land is unregistered whoever happens to be using it at the time is the owner ? Is this right from a legal point of view @phr47bridges?

No, it belongs to whoever owns it, as is also true in England & Wales. The fact that ownership is not registered at the land registry does not alter the way ownership works. The land is owned by whoever last purchased legal title to the land from the previous owner.

I looked inline and it looks like land aquired after 1998 by inhearitance legally should be registered with the land registry. I am assuming from your comments that Nephew inhearited before 1998? What year was it his Dad died ?

You are trying to apply English law to Northern Ireland. That does not help the OP. As per my earlier post, the registration requirements are different in Northern Ireland. There is no requirement to register inherited land in Northern Ireland.

@Prh47bridge Thank you for explaining! You have been kind and helpful. Thanks again for explaining that the clocks starts when my friend's son turns 18. This is important info she cannot afford to pay for. So if Newphews father and grandfather had no wills lets say, is his right to farm the land aquired because unregistered land is owned by whoever is currently using it ? If Nephew had a son and daughter and no will, and the son started farming the land, could he simply register it in his name ? Or would any intestacy rules apply ? Would the son simply tell the land registry he is the eldest son and is farming the land and the land registry would accept this even if his sister was unhappy? I mean to say with unregistered land in northern ireland is it generally accepted the eldest son or current farmer has the right to register it ? Even if Nephew has every legal right am curriious as to whether the transition to his eldest son is likely to cause any issues.

@Prh47bridge if Nephew's Dad and Grandad wrote no wills and the land was unregistered then he what proof of ownership would he need to show to sell the property or register it in his name ? Or would his word be enough? If he died intestate with no will and his sons both lived on the property could one gain legal ownership by being the first to register with the land registry or would normal intestacy rules apply ? Or would the land registry likely accept the claim of an older son but not a younger one ?

@lavendersquare am intested to know what kids nephew has as even if FIL has no rights to it warning him to write a will might be sensible if he has kids. Especially if more than one son !

[quote Thehouseofmarvels]@SolasAnla Op has just said she thinks that the land was never registered. It sounds like ownership passed by informal verbal agreements. You do realise that if everything is unregistered then nephew does not actually own it ? Imagine if Newphew or his kids try to sell the farm and properties one day but there name is on nothing ? [/quote]
I do realise the nephew may have no registered title to the land.

There could be a lot of land in poor parts of Ireland and the Uk which is passes down to the first male. In some cases they are trapped into farming the land by family obligation and they and their wife ended up looking after and funding his parents in their old age.
If the farm income provided enough money it would be tradition to support the other family members into a trade or profession. If not they were forced into emigration.

The OP has not indicated how the FIL's brother ended up with the farm 30 years ago but the problem is with what he feels his nephew must now provide.

The Courts may end up deciding on who should of gotten what. Or the nephew make a payment his father was not expected to make 30 years ago.

The FIL would have signed off for his brother but not for his brothers son.

That is the crux of the matter.
The FIL and other siblings walked away or were pushed off by their father.

The FIL could go "send me the papers I will sign away ownership and never darken your door again". It stopped being the FIL's home 30 years ago and it stopped being his livelihood too.

As I said, if it was for the money that one thing, this is imo a game of one-upmanship.

@SolasAnsla yes the eldest son system worked for centuries but doesn't work well today. Daughters are not married off at 18-25 to other farmers so often and are expected to work largely so are not going to be so happy about the eldest son thing. In addition the eldest son was expected to be generous, support parents and other relatives, so the people who did not inhearit did get a benefit as there was a social expectation of generocity in a world with no social security. It seems nephew has been accepted as the owner by common concent as long as the other family members get some benefit such as being allowed to use the cottages. Historically newphew might have let windowed or poor relatives live in the cottages. He is not fulfilling what they seem to see as his part of the bargin therefore the two ownership systems are starting to colide. I think it would be a good outcome to negotiate with nephew that the siblings each own a cottage or part of a cottage and they sign away any rights to the farm. Then nephew can register his right to the farm and keep his business. He should be advised to write a will. He might huff and puff and fall out with them but it will be better that they fall out with him compared to nephews kids possibly fighting over what ownership system to use if the land remains unregistered and he also died intestate.

@lavendersquare Do you think in exchange that nephew might agree to allow the use of a property, a life tenancy or sign it over if his family agree not to pursue any claims ? The family could sign documents as part of a mediation process. Nephew could keep his business and the rest of the family can get a property to use as a holiday cottage. Could that work ? He gets his land and other properties registered properly and is encouraged to right a will. Essentially swapping from eldest son common consent ownership to documented legal ownership. If he has children or grandchildren hopefully this will solve future problems as the next generation may want to invoke the rules of intestacy if there is no will or registration which could split up the farm.

[quote Thehouseofmarvels]@SolasAnsla yes the eldest son system worked for centuries but doesn't work well today. Daughters are not married off at 18-25 to other farmers so often and are expected to work largely so are not going to be so happy about the eldest son thing. In addition the eldest son was expected to be generous, support parents and other relatives, so the people who did not inhearit did get a benefit as there was a social expectation of generocity in a world with no social security. It seems nephew has been accepted as the owner by common concent as long as the other family members get some benefit such as being allowed to use the cottages. Historically newphew might have let windowed or poor relatives live in the cottages. He is not fulfilling what they seem to see as his part of the bargin therefore the two ownership systems are starting to colide. I think it would be a good outcome to negotiate with nephew that the siblings each own a cottage or part of a cottage and they sign away any rights to the farm. Then nephew can register his right to the farm and keep his business. He should be advised to write a will. He might huff and puff and fall out with them but it will be better that they fall out with him compared to nephews kids possibly fighting over what ownership system to use if the land remains unregistered and he also died intestate.[/quote]
You are making things up.

The FIL had a chance to claim part of the farm 30 years ago. He did not.

There was no deal where the FIL's brother had to provide anything.
If there was a deal the OP would be asking what the economic value of 2-4 weeks housing in NI over the year was worth.

The houses on the farm are a valuable part of the farm as rentals or as farmhand accomadation. The nephew would be just as well off to seek an adverse possession order.
He can prove that the FIL knew that the land was occupied and in use by himself and his father and had no objections for 30 years.

And signing over property would be stupid. The nephew would want rid of them, not have them turning next door.

The FIL's decisions has exactly zero impact on how the nephew organised his financials.
Any children of the nephew may have no interest to work in an industry which has poor working conditions and poor income streams. And all of that is simply none of the FIL's business.

In NI it is likely that a transfer of ownership happened whilst the person was alive to allow the farm to stay within the family.

@SolasAnsla do you not think at least that nephew ought to be encouraged to write a will and register ownership? While the system has worked up until now there are so many things that could go wrong next time the owner dies; the system relies on everyone agreeing. The system the family have devised is not even totally traditional as traditionally farms pass from father to son but this passed from father to mother to son, it is a sort of made up system. One other thing is that if there were cash assets it is pretty raw deal the other kids got nothing. If they had pushed for it I suppose they could hace forced normal intestacy laws to be used when the old farmer died so it sucks the nephew will not even let them holiday on the farm.

@cabbageking the op says that she thinks the properties and land are totally unregistered. It appears that the farm passed from father to mother to older son with little or no paperwork or wills. It appears the nephew has ownership by default not by any legal paperwork.

Even if the land is unregistered there will be title deeds and a paper record to follow back.
Equally the land may cover several sites and still have been passed down correctly by transfer when the persons were alive. No one can say just based on the information provided.

@cabbageking so possibly the title deads could still be in the name of the old farmer if no transfer done when he was alive and if no paperwork done since?

I'm not going to attempt to answer all of these questions.

So if Newphews father and grandfather had no wills lets say, is his right to farm the land aquired because unregistered land is owned by whoever is currently using it ? If Nephew had a son and daughter and no will, and the son started farming the land, could he simply register it in his name ? Or would any intestacy rules apply ? Would the son simply tell the land registry he is the eldest son and is farming the land and the land registry would accept this even if his sister was unhappy? I mean to say with unregistered land in northern ireland is it generally accepted the eldest son or current farmer has the right to register it ? Even if Nephew has every legal right am curriious as to whether the transition to his eldest son is likely to cause any issues.

If there was no will originally, the land should not have passed to FIL's brother. However, it did. Unless someone successfully contests that, the farm was legally his. Who it belongs to now is therefore governed by his will or, if he didn't leave one, the rules of intestacy. If there was no will and the nephew has siblings, they are likely to be entitled to a share of the farm. However, if no-one challenges it the farm will continue to belong to the nephew.

if Nephew's Dad and Grandad wrote no wills and the land was unregistered then he what proof of ownership would he need to show to sell the property or register it in his name ? Or would his word be enough? If he died intestate with no will and his sons both lived on the property could one gain legal ownership by being the first to register with the land registry or would normal intestacy rules apply ? Or would the land registry likely accept the claim of an older son but not a younger one ?

The deeds would provide proof. If they haven't been transferred to the new owner's name, that would need to be rectified, which should be straightforward. I'm not sure about the Land Registry in Northern Ireland, but in England someone registering the land would need to show that they owned it or that the owner was deceased and they were administering the estate.

[quote Thehouseofmarvels]@SolasAnsla do you not think at least that nephew ought to be encouraged to write a will and register ownership? While the system has worked up until now there are so many things that could go wrong next time the owner dies; the system relies on everyone agreeing. The system the family have devised is not even totally traditional as traditionally farms pass from father to son but this passed from father to mother to son, it is a sort of made up system. One other thing is that if there were cash assets it is pretty raw deal the other kids got nothing. If they had pushed for it I suppose they could hace forced normal intestacy laws to be used when the old farmer died so it sucks the nephew will not even let them holiday on the farm. [/quote]
The nephew's will has nothing to do with the FIL.

Makes no difference to the FIL how the nephew got the land or if FIL's brother got cash the time to bring that up was 30 years ago.

Basic guesting rules are a two way street, I am guessing the FIL forgets he is no longer dealing with a sibling.

[quote Thehouseofmarvels]@SolasAnsla do you not think at least that nephew ought to be encouraged to write a will and register ownership? While the system has worked up until now there are so many things that could go wrong next time the owner dies; the system relies on everyone agreeing. The system the family have devised is not even totally traditional as traditionally farms pass from father to son but this passed from father to mother to son, it is a sort of made up system. One other thing is that if there were cash assets it is pretty raw deal the other kids got nothing. If they had pushed for it I suppose they could hace forced normal intestacy laws to be used when the old farmer died so it sucks the nephew will not even let them holiday on the farm. [/quote]
The nephew's will has nothing to do with the FIL.

Makes no difference to the FIL how the nephew got the land or if FIL's brother got cash the time to bring that up was 30 years ago.

Basic guesting rules are a two way street, I am guessing the FIL forgets he is no longer dealing with a sibling.

Double post again??
(Is MN on the blip tonight)

@Prh47bridge When you say the rules of intestacy apply if nephews dad left no will and nephew had siblings I guess you are assuming that nephews dad died in the last 12 years? Am I correcting in thinking if there is an intestacy it goes to whoever lives there after 12 years? Does it matter if land is registered or unregistered? So rules of intestacy apply if no will and no paperwork if within 12 years or it goes to whoever inhabits a property after 12 years ? I think I got that right from what you have said.