Daughter wanted answers about her Dad

[Ineedanapxx]

My ex left me 10 years ago following years of DV. Our child was a toddler at the time, now a teenager.

As a brief back story our marriage disintegrated when I fell pregnant as he became incredibly abusive and then violent. He assaulted me multiple times when I was pregnant and threatened to remove our child from me. I never reported it to the police as I did not want to lose my child. I had pre-natal depression (which he claimed made me unfit as a mother) and every medical issue caused by pregnancy in the book. I was admittedly difficult and emotional. I later discovered he had been having an affair which led to our relationship only deteriorating further. He left me multiple times during the pregnancy, and after only to return - until he finally left to move in with his mistress. He then took me to court to get residence on the basis I was mentally unstable/unfit. I did not disclose his abuse or seek to make it relevant to contact. Unfortunately, the police became involved 6 months later as he assaulted me during a contact handover, leading to social services getting involved and my being forced to disclose his abuse ( the social worker told me I could lose my child if I failed to disclose abuse and it put her at risk). Long story short, the court gave me residence and him minimal contact. I thought it would all end. I was wrong.

I never wanted our child to know any of this information so have always told her that we mutually agreed to separate as we did not love each other anymore. She knew nothing of the horrific things her Father did, nor of his continued abuse towards me as I did not fell this was information she needed or should have. I have always wanted her to form her own relationship with her Father, on her own terms, based on her own experience.

The abuse towards me has continued in the form of harassment, further legal action, accusations of alienation, manipulating our child & emotionally abusing our child. Our child has been in counselling for years at the request of various professionals to help her cope with her Father's behaviour towards her.

Last night, out of the blue, my daughter (now a teenager) began to question me regards the past - how we split up, her Father's involvement in my pregnancy, her birth etc. Her questions were very specific and blunt - among other things she asked me if he every hurt me and if he left me and if he was still nasty to me. I tried to evade the questions but she was determined to get an answer out of me. She told me to not lie to her and that she had a right to know the truth as she put it. I could not persuade her to drop it and the more I wouldn't answer her questions, the more she persisted. I did not want to lie to her, so answered truthfully giving the absolute minimum information I could.

I am in shock and absolutely petrified. My ex husband has been attempting to have our child removed from my care for 6 years on the basis of my ''alienating'' him and finished the last round of legal involvement only 6 months ago. The court and social workers involved have until now dismissed his claims I am alienating him but I am now petrified that having answered these questions I will be seen to have alienated him.

Does anyone have any experience of situations like this and how the court or social services would respond?

So she is thirteen? And doesn’t want to spend more time with her dad?

No court will try to make her live with him.

Make sure she is not deleting the abusive messages from him.

You are right to put this in the legal section and the answers you have so far are caring and morally reasonable and imo correct …. But it is the legal answer you need.

I’m afraid I don’t know it but sending hugs of support to you and your daughter. I hope someone knowledgeable can answer soon.

I don’t think she has to wait until she’s 16 OP, younger teens’ opinions also matter in contact arrangements, so if at 13/14 she says she doesn’t want any more to do with him then that carries some weight. It might actually help that he’s already tried to argue alienation and that’s been thrown out.

Thank you. I'm struggling with how to best navigate this discussion with her but agree it's control / coercion. I've never explicitly said to her that no one can force her to see him, and it's true to say she feels forced owing to the court order. She's very explicit that the day she turns 16 a lot is going to change

You really need to be honest with her now. She needs the facts to make her own informed decisions.

What do you and she think will change on her 16th birthday ?

I know you have done what you have done to try and protect her. But we protect our 13 years olds differently than our 3 year olds.

I think you did the right thing. You have now validated her suspicions and experiences which will likely be empowering for her, but also this will very likely make her have mixed feelings too.
I think i would suggest telling her now that it was difficult to know if she should know the whole truth because you never wanted to cause any issues between the two of them, but that if she ever feels unsafe then she is old enough to decide what she wants to do. Remind her that she never has to accept abuse of any kind and that you hope she understands why you didnt tell her until directly asked

Tell her the truth, that in court you were told not to talk badly about her dad, and because of this and the fear of what disobeying this court ruling might cause you have not told her things.
That you still worry about this, but one day you will sit with her and answer her questions.

She should be able to stop seeing him as a young teen - there must be plenty of evidence for his emotional abuse.
I would focus on supporting her to achieve this end whilst showing that you are putting her needs first. I hope you are both free of him before too long.

It sounds like (I'm probably totally wrong), but by asking you about the relationship, she is wanting to know if her gut reaction towards her dad is wrong. She has rejected his attempts to get her to live with him, for whatever reason. It may have been something tangible, maybe a sense that something is off about him. It sounds like you're doing the right thing. There may be a fallout, like "why did you let me stay over when he is violent?" , but like others have said, you did it to protect her. There's no right or wrong way of doing this parenting thing.

I’d quote the most recent court case and email Cafcass and ask what to do by email and how best to approach it and if they can refer you to anyone

My youngest is protected but when older he will understand the courts don’t give life long restraining orders for nothing

I would suggest getting in touch with the pastoral team at her school. good schools are generally experienced in these type of situations and can signpost to help for her. They also need to know that she is struggling with her relationship with her father and can support her with that as well.

To be honest you are really not protecting or helping her by not telling her the truth about him - how confusing to her when he’s so horrible to her but apparently wasn’t to you. She needs the truth from you abs support about the fact that’s what he’s like.

@Sunbird24

I don’t think she has to wait until she’s 16 OP, younger teens’ opinions also matter in contact arrangements, so if at 13/14 she says she doesn’t want any more to do with him then that carries some weight. It might actually help that he’s already tried to argue alienation and that’s been thrown out.

The court order requires me to make her available until she is 16. She still wants to see him, just not to the degree he wants or with the conditions he imposes. It's not black & white if you see what I mean - she's torn - he's still her father and she still loves him.

@Double3xposure

Thank you. I'm struggling with how to best navigate this discussion with her but agree it's control / coercion. I've never explicitly said to her that no one can force her to see him, and it's true to say she feels forced owing to the court order. She's very explicit that the day she turns 16 a lot is going to change

You really need to be honest with her now. She needs the facts to make her own informed decisions.

What do you and she think will change on her 16th birthday ?

I know you have done what you have done to try and protect her. But we protect our 13 years olds differently than our 3 year olds.

The court order requires me to make her available until she's 16, and the SW told her at that point it's her choice hence her reference to a lot changing when she's 16.

I'm trying to be honest, but I really don't see how disclosing the grusome details of his violence would help her.

There is something that prevents abusers from taking their victims back to court as a form of abuse. Can you look into that at least?

Regarding your daughter, you need to answer all of her questions or you risk her perception of relationships becoming warped and increase her chances of having the same thing happen to her.

I know you want to protect her from the truth, but it's more important you protect her from becoming another victim.

@handmademitlove

I would suggest getting in touch with the pastoral team at her school. good schools are generally experienced in these type of situations and can signpost to help for her. They also need to know that she is struggling with her relationship with her father and can support her with that as well.

The school pastoral team are aware as they got involved during the last legal round.. they are supporting her but she is very reluctant to discuss with them. She does however have a good counsellor who she tells me she is very open with.

@wizzywig

It sounds like (I'm probably totally wrong), but by asking you about the relationship, she is wanting to know if her gut reaction towards her dad is wrong. She has rejected his attempts to get her to live with him, for whatever reason. It may have been something tangible, maybe a sense that something is off about him. It sounds like you're doing the right thing. There may be a fallout, like "why did you let me stay over when he is violent?" , but like others have said, you did it to protect her. There's no right or wrong way of doing this parenting thing.

The court ordered overnight contact knowing he was violent. I had no choice.

I did get the sense she was validating so I think you're probably right. I've answered her truthfully, just leaving out the gruesome details of the violence. She has validation that her Father is a liar, an adulterer, that he is nasty to me, and treated me appallingly. She also has validation that he continues to treat me badly.

@FFSFFSFFS

To be honest you are really not protecting or helping her by not telling her the truth about him - how confusing to her when he’s so horrible to her but apparently wasn’t to you. She needs the truth from you abs support about the fact that’s what he’s like.

I was honest that he did treat me badly and continues to do so.

I really feel for you, the real reason I left my ex would only be revealed to my children in very specific circumstances I hope never happen.

However, he is now abusing your daughter and she needs help to deal with this, knowing what happened will help her.

I hope she is documenting his actions because this will help her in the future when she decides what contact will be.

Just be factual, limit to answering her specific questions. Where possible state things that you can corroborate independently eg dv if reported to the police. She deserves the truth because she's asked

My friend has never told her son about the dv, he contacted his father at 20 and has a relationship with him, it hurts her to hear positive stories about their relationship but she doesn't want him to know what a horrible man he was, her choice

I think there’s a legal difference between you making her available and her choosing whether or not she wants to go, or go but for less time than he wants, but hopefully somebody will be along with a definitive answer.
You’re doing the best you can for her in what sounds like really awful circumstances, and you sound like a strong mama.

OP there isn't a way you can prevent him from claiming PA. Happily, after the PA nonsense got a bit of traction in the courts, there's evidence that the pendulum is swinging back again.

You are right to spare her the details, she doesn't need to know that. I think you are right to answer her questions truthfully albeit cautiously.

The Order requires you to make her available, but the court is well aware that teenagers become increasingly unbiddable. A flat no from a 14 year old girl with a string of abusive messages from dad is a pretty immovable object. 16 is relevant as it is simply the age at which children cease to be subject to such orders, other than in exceptional circumstances.

The reason I'm worried is 2 fold: the first is that if he were to go to court again she is now in possession of information from me that casts him in a very poor light and secondly if she were to confront him with this information the risk she would be putting herself in.

The risk of him taking me to court again is high as the more he pressures our child to be / think and act the way he wants her to, the more she pulls away from him. When she was very little she used to bend over backwards to please him but over the years the pendulum has just gone to the other extreme so it's obvious to everyone. They have no relationship, she sees him out of duty and the fact that despite everything he is her father and she loves him warts and all. The courts have absolute power and they can order her to live with him if they believe I have alienated her from him; whether they would is another matter. I have lived in fear of this for 10 years and I still fear it as it would be the worst possible outcome. Court proceedings are very difficult and I want to avoid DD going through anymore than she has already had to because of his alienation claims to date. Sadly, they stick, as he and his expensive barristers make a compelling case.. she nearly had a nervous breakdown last time from all the interrogation to ascertain if I had / had not alienated her - albeit it was not explicitly put to her as for that purpose. She was left feeling he is omnipotent and can do what he pleases without penalty & she has no choice but to get caught up in it. I don't think she can take much more. My worry is this knowledge she now has has given him power to do more of the same - and succeed this time.

The court order requires me to make her available until she's 16, and the SW told her at that point it's her choice hence her reference to a lot changing when she's 16

I'm trying to be honest, but I really don't see how disclosing the grusome details of his violence would help her

You need legal advice as to what exactly “ making her available ” means. Social workers are not solicitors.

I’m pretty sure that she has choices before them, but I’m not a solicitor either. You need one.

Or Is your daughter able to apply for legal aid and get her own solicitor to represent her?

I never suggested that you told her the gruesome details. But you need to tell her the truth in age appropriate way.

So if he hit you and your needed 10 stitches in your face you tell her that. You don’t show her the photos.

Nor do you say “ Daddy was a teeny tiny bit angry and we had words but I’m sure he had good reason and it was probably my fault “.

@Double3xposure I've had advice from a solicitor previously on what making her available means. She is not refusing to see him at all, she is just refusing to see him more than the order requires her to.

My question here was really aimed at trying to understand how a court or social services would view my disclosing what I have in response to her questions.

As it relates to the details of his violence, she asked me if he had ever hurt me. I answered yes but said I preferred to not give details on how he hurt me. She knows he was violent, she does not know the degree to which. I don't think she would cope with knowing what he did to me. Lastly, I cannot prove he was violent as I didn't report any of it and lied to doctors to cover the injuries I sustained. It is my word against his and he would deny it as he has in the past.

I am very torn and see what you are saying, but have to consider she is already in a fragile state. I don't want to push her over the edge.