Need advice daughter arrested and mental health section

[drinkingwineoutofamug]

Daughter voluntary section last Thursday.
Psychotic breakdown
Assaulted a staff member who was trying to stop my daughter from stabbing herself.
And punch a fellow patient who threw hot tea in her face burning her.
She was discharged yesterday, police outside the mental health unit waiting to arrest her.
She's been charged for crimes she committed while under a section and is up in court tomorrow.
Help!

The police mental health nurse was able to access her mental health record .

You need a good MH solicitor, including to explain some of the legal concepts to you properly, you don't have things quite right (no criticism, it is complicated and it's a stressful time). Things like the actual nature of the detention aka the "section", and the (erroneous) idea that is perpetuated that you cannot be charged with an offence if you are mentally ill (and that being unwell equals not having "capacity"). Please get a good and understanding solic asap

Sorry, mistake, when I said MH solicitor I meant a criminal solic with experience with MH, not an actual MH solicitor. Important distinction in this case.

Stressful is putting it lightly @theDudesmummy .

Sending a handhold and wine for your mug @drinkingwineoutofamug (a box enough?!)

@drinkingwineoutofamug
Section 5(2) gives doctors the ability to detain someone in hospital for up to 72 hours, during which time you should receive an assessment that decides if further detention under the Mental Health Act is necessary
www.nhs.uk/mental-health/social-care-and-your-rights/mental-health-and-the-law/mental-health-act/
If she was sectioned under 5(2), it isn’t voluntary. She may have said yes, I’ll agree to it, but actually if she didn’t agree she would have been detained anyway. As others have said, she needs a criminal solicitor.

She won’t have been charged with ‘throwing a plastic plate’ at someone. She may well have been charged with common assault. www.lawtonslaw.co.uk/resources/varying-degrees-of-assault/

@drinkingwineoutofamug I'm so sorry to read this, I can understand how distressing it must be for you. I work for the NHS and unfortunately staff are regularly assaulted verbally and physically by patients, particularly in mental health inpatient wards. Staff are always going off sick with stress and leaving as a result. It's a huge issue as it's already very difficult to recruit staff.

I know this doesn't help your daughter, but I thought it might help you to look at this from the perspective of the staff and understand why the Trust will want to press charges. They need to demonstrate to their staff that they take assaults seriously.

I see your daughter has a mental health nurse with her, I'm glad the Police are looking after her and I really hope she gets the help she needs.

Just because she was in a MH hospital doesn't mean she doesn't know exactly what she is doing. I used to work in an acute unit and most of the assaults were from those who knew exactly what they were doing, as opposed to the very unwell ones. Get a MH solicitor as everyone deserves fair representation but I do hope that she is held accountable unless she was so unwell that she didn't know what she was doing. It wouldn't be classed as an assault on staff if it was just a case of her pushing them away when they tried to grab the implement out of her hands that she was going to stab herself with. It will likely have been a proper assault.

Thank you @Soontobe60 .
I'm all of a twist , reading up on stuff as no one will speak to me.
I haven't seen her since last week. Didn't see her whilst in the unit due to COVID restrictions which is fair enough.
Thought I was done with courts and stuff .
She has a home care team apparently coming out daily to her - starting when she doesn't know.
She's also been tested for autism as well.
But every time she is assessed by mh team they come up with a new diagnosis.
Yet her neurologist say no mh problems and it's all based on her epilepsy and brain damage .
I'm stuck completely.
At present she has been diagnosed with ptsd, ocd, bpd, anxiety & depression, and another I can't remember.
She hears voices and noises, at times she has hallucinations . No empathy at all. Mood swings, self harms continuously.
Last week was her 6th attempt of suicide.
She hung herself fgs and if I had not been still awake and heard the banging she would be dead now.
I had to pull her up out of the window .
She was told to contact talking therapy after she told the psych liaison that if she went home she would do it again.
We were back in a&e within a week after her taking every medication she could get her hands on.
Discharge.
Tried to jump in front of a train, police stopped her .
Then she was admitted to the mh unit for 72 hours and released.

@TabithaTiger , I'm nhs nurse. It's laughable as the patient who punched me and gave me a black eye. No punishment.
The patient who strangled me was moved to a different ward.
I understand what your saying though, and thank you

If she was held under a section 5(2) - which is for assessment only - but then not detained under the MHA following that assessment, then she very likely has capacity. (Detention under the MHA doesn't necessarily imply a lack of capacity, but people ill enough to need detention are more likely to lack capacity than those well enough to be discharged).

Her mental state will therefore probably not prevent her being charged and prosecuted as normal, though it may be mitigation in the event of being found guilty. A good criminal solicitor may be able to help talk down any charges, though.

Hope you have some support, OP? What you are going through sounds horrendous

I'm so sorry for what you are going through. It's really hard when nobody will tell you anything because she's an adult and "data protection".

I do feel for you OP. It's hard I've gone through a lot of sections and units and it's not easy. I also work for the NHS know.
As said above a 5:2 is a doctors hold for 72hr to be assessed under the MHA. it's isn't voluntary. Maybe she was just aggreing she needed to be in there ?they will take her mental helath and mental state into consideration but it sounds like they believe/she had capacity. Which if she did you can still be charged with criminal offenses. Capacity isn't about making bad desions (like trying to harm yourself) it's about not being able to retain and understand information. You can have the capacity to make unwise decisions. That's normally when the MHA comes in. There's a difference between having capacity and meeting teh threshold for a section. You can still be charged crimanly whilst on a section and it will be taken into account.
Mental health wards are really trying to clamp down of violence/assaults both on staff and patients. Bring admitted and in crisis really isn't an excuse to hurt people. If someone deffintly doesn't have capacity at the time they won't pursue a prosecution. If they are in doubt they often will. It can (not always) depend on what circumstances it happened it. Weather they believe there was intent. When I was younger (and I know this has happened for other people) I hurt a member of staff during a restraint as I was scared and trying to get away. They knew I didn't mean to hurt anyone. But I did talk to the ward manger and made an apology. As I said that's not always the case know.
I know it hard. Your daughters unwell and in crisis. It must be so diffcuilt to have this on top. But just because she was unwell dosent give an excuse for hurting someone both Staff and patient. I would work with the solicitor and the mental helath teams and make sure you have support for yourself to.

It sounds like she would be better living in supported accommodation, it sounds very difficult for you both. I hope it all goes well tomorrow and you both get the help you need.

Glad your daughter has a nurse with her op. Sounds like you've really been through a tough time, I'll be thinking of you both tomorrow, hope she gets the proper help she so desperately needs.

So sorry you and your dd are going through this.

I know a little about the mental health system and how it works (or doesn’t work). Proving wether someone has ‘capacity’ to make decisions is so hard to prove and those trying to prove that she does have capacity probably don’t know her at all. There’s a huge shortage of mental health beds so they will try their best to make out that she she had capacity when she did the things she’s being charged with , if it’s proven that she doesn’t have capacity she could end up in a secure mental health unit until she’s considered low enough risk to be in a low risk mental health unit or to go home. Obviously they want to prove she has capacity so she doesn’t take up a mental health bed that they probably don’t have.

Having been inside several mental health units (with work and with a family member) I can see how easy it is for someone to lose their temper, they are not nice places because they are underfunded and obviously you have multiple mentally ill people together (it’s a ticking time bomb for something to kick off).

I really hope your dd gets the help she needs, I know how awful it is having experienced similar with a close family member and having worked with families in similar situations.

OP I don't doubt that the police are looking after her better than when she was under S2, the mental health services are a nightmare & I don't know if that system helps anyone.
Speaking of someone whose son was in & out of the system for 12 years.

All I can say is get some good representation who will explain the circumstances of the arrests & charges

Is your daughter ever psychotic op?

I dont think she was on a S2. It was a 5/2 for 72hrs.

OP an involuntary section is better than a voluntary section, an involuntary section legally they have to find her a bed for a min of 28 days, a voluntary section they will do their best to find a bed for the shortest amount of time possible.

Also, if she does remain at home rather than in hospital then it’s worth contacting your local Mind, in my area they offer an intensive support service to those discharged from hospital (for MH conditions) and an amazing monthly support group for people with BPD

@Essexmum321 There is no thing as a voluntary section. That’s a contradiction in terms. For someone to be ‘sectioned’ it means being placed under a Section of the MH Act because the individual won’t otherwise go into hospital voluntarily.

Quite often, people decide to go in voluntarily because the other option is to be placed (involuntarily) under a Section of the MH Act (aka ‘sectioned’).

OP- a Section 5(2) is an involuntary 72hr period of initial assessment to determine if the person can be placed under a Section 2 (28days for longer-term assessment purposes).

I say this as a senior MH professional having spent years working in acute MH wards dealing with Sections, and also as someone to whom this has happened.

@drinkingwineoutofamug I'm thinking of you and your daughter today . Hoping that the outcome might offer some hope .

Keep going ,sending you virtual strength ( not much help I know ) .

Thank you every one for clearing up my miss understanding. My head has been up my arse .
Today will just be another day of waiting.