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Original poster

DM Wills and PoA

26 replies

Willsquestion · 20/07/2021 11:27

I’ve name changed for this.
My parents are in their mid 70s, no wills or PoA set up.
My dad is very controlling and my relationship with him is strained. Behaviour during lockdown has ramped up towards my mum. Have a good relationship with DM.

Dad has a chronic health condition which will not improve, only get worse, is impacting on his mobility. DM is doing more and more for him and me and my Dbro are worried about her.
Dad is secretive with DM about what the doctors say to him (he’s had zoom consultations during lockdown).

My worry is what will happen if either of them die without a will. They own a house. My greater worry is if my DM were to pass first. My dad couldn’t live alone and I’m not prepared to care for him and neither is my Dbro.

I’ve been talking to my DM about this, she is happy to get her affairs in order but my dad totally refuses to engage in any conversation about this. I have suggested we look into PoA for her solely and I can be named. Is this possible?
With regards to writing a will, is there any point my DM writing one if she’s married, assets owned jointly and dad is refusing to write one.
Thanks in advance.

OP posts:
MarianneUnfaithful · 20/07/2021 11:33

Yes - as far as I know your Mum can write a will leaving her half of the house directly to her children (or anyone she pleases).

She will probably need to put in a clause that says that your father has a right to reside until he dies or goes into a home.

Her writing that will protects her half of the house going to pay for his care fees, too.

She should speak to a solicitor as quickly as possible.

Marlow Wills is run by a MNer and give a great, inexpensive, telephone-based service and will deal with POA too.

Yes, you can get POA just for your Mum and your father does not have to be one of the people with POA. As far as I know. Not an expert, but have been though this with relatives.

Original poster
Willsquestion · 20/07/2021 11:35

@MarianneUnfaithful thank you so much, that is really really helpful. I didn’t realise that, or maybe I did but just can’t formulate my ideas around this as I’m too close. Thanks again

OP posts:
Optimist1 · 20/07/2021 11:41

I agree with everything @MarianneUnfaithful says, especially the services offered by Marlow Wills.

One thing occurs to me - although you can get PoA for your mother, at some stage in the process there's a requirement for her nearest relatives to be notified, so it's not something you could keep secret from your father.

Clem4579 · 20/07/2021 11:42

You can apply online for LPOA, it's quite straight forward and will be cheaper than getting a solicitor to do it.
There are two parts, one is for finance and the other for health and welfare, ideally you want both.

milkytwilight · 20/07/2021 11:43

How do they own the house? Joint tenants or tenants in common? As far as I'm aware, not an expert, if its held as joint tenants her half would automatically go to your dad, regardless of what the will says.

Original poster
Willsquestion · 20/07/2021 11:45

@milkytwilight I’m not sure to be honest. How would my DM find out? Thanks

OP posts:
milkytwilight · 20/07/2021 11:50

Purchase the title from the land registry for £3.
I believe if you have a clause under part "B. Proprietorship Register" and then "Title Absolute" that starts "2) no disposition by a sole proprieter of the registered estate..." etc it means its owned as tenants in common. If it doesnt have that clause then I believe its held as joint tenants.

Unless my info is out of date, in which case I apologise!

VanCleefArpels · 20/07/2021 11:56

DM would find out her ownership status by looking at the deeds. If they were married when they bought the property then it’s almost certain they were joint tenants, in which case she will not be able to sever her half to leave to beneficiaries.

Here’s info about what happens without a Will - basically everything up to the value of £270k goes to surviving spouse, and half of anything over that amount. The rest would be devided equally between children

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/family/death-and-wills/who-can-inherit-if-there-is-no-will-the-rules-of-intestacy/

It’s ALWAYS worth making a Will - your DM might want to leave specific gifts eg jewellery to certain people for example, she may have assets in her own name eg pension fund, savings etc that she may wish to leave to specified people.

Original poster
Willsquestion · 20/07/2021 12:05

Thanks @milkytwilight, will do that, though as @VanCleefArpels says, they were married at time of purchase so most likely joint tenants.

Definitely need to speak to a solicitor. Think DM wanted to avoid this, due to my dad.
And @Clem4579 and @Optimist1, thanks for the advice on LPoA, will look at this too.

OP posts:
ShippingNews · 20/07/2021 12:18

The good thing about them being joint tenants, is that if DF died first, even without a will, his half of the house would automatically go to DM.

Original poster
Willsquestion · 20/07/2021 12:25

@ShippingNews yes I did think of that. I’m concerned about DM though. She’s in good health compared with my dad, but she’s running herself ragged looking after him. She recently described him as disabled, surely they should be asking for some sort of adult social services assessment in that case.

OP posts:
Akire · 20/07/2021 12:27

Definitely sort POA for mum. It makes sense if children are happy to do than go to the trouble of naming next of kin who just as likely to get ill or die.

You don’t have to legally notify people about who you have decided to be POA but there is the option. Some one can only object if they believe you have been forced into it against your will or you lacked capacity at the time. Or if you are bankrupt and not to Even if he disagrees he can’t do anything about it if she is of sound mind.

Akire · 20/07/2021 12:28

Sorry posted midway edit! I’ve just done mine I’m 45 and single. Makes no sense leave vital decisions to some social worker who never met me.

Original poster
Willsquestion · 20/07/2021 12:34

@Akire thank you, yes I explained this to my mum, that potentially a social worker could make decisions on their behalf.

OP posts:
ancientgran · 20/07/2021 12:58

@Akire

Sorry posted midway edit! I’ve just done mine I’m 45 and single. Makes no sense leave vital decisions to some social worker who never met me.
I found out the downside of that. I have LPoA for elderly relative, she lives 200 miles away and has no children so I agreed to do it. It meant her local authority washed their hands of her, it was my problem. I had so much stress from it all, police, GP, neighbours as well as the worry of how she was and not being able to get her into a home that I ended up on a cardiac ward for 5 days. Within minutes of getting home I had her GP on the phone demanding I do this that and the other. They knew I had been in hospital and when they found out that I was being discharged that day they started ringing me.

When I told the LA I was renouncing the LPoA they threatened to cancel her carers, which she was paying for, and transferring her to a cheaper company. That would have been awful, she was bad enough with the carers she knew the idea of starting again was madness. So of course I carried on.

I agree she gets better decisions with me doing it but I've had the burden for several years and I wish I could just visit and have a normal relationship with her.

Original poster
Willsquestion · 20/07/2021 13:03

@ancientgran sorry to hear that’s been your experience, sounds incredibly stressful. Hope your health has recovered.
I’m more than happy to be LPoA for my mum, we have a close relationship and she lives close by.

OP posts:
ancientgran · 21/07/2021 10:35

@Willsquestion. Things are alot better, no thanks to LA. In the end I hired a private social worker who got to know her, got her trust and got her into a suitable home.

I do think her LA is particularly bad, prides itself on low council tax and spends the absolute minimum. I just think it is important to be real about it as I never thought how poor the help would be, I saw it as I was taking lots of pressure off the LA and not that they would wash their hands of her.

Her GP was no better, they tried her on a med that had horrific side effects so she was taken off them. I visited and found out they had been prescribed again as a mistake instead of the ones she had instead. The GP surgery was very unsupportive, it was Friday afternoon and I couldn't get a doctor to speak to me until I told the receptionist to pass on a message highlighting what had happened the last time they gave her those tablets and if anything happened I would make sure there name was plastered over the front of newspapers. I got a call back in minutes, the senior doctor came out and apologised and issued a new prescription.

Definitely be assertive, good luck.

DogsSausages · 21/07/2021 10:43

Your dad can have a care assessment, it's free and everyone is entitled to have one carried out but he needs to agree if he has mental capacity. That might help them with getting equipment or home adaptations made and a physio and occupational therapist could assess his walking and safety. He could then apply for attendance allowance and your mum can arrange for a carers assessment and allowance. Mum can have her own poa, do it online, good luck.

SadAboutSD · 21/07/2021 11:00

@Willsquestion
Re joint tenants can't leave their 'half' to someone else
I think though, you can easily change to tenants-in-common, just an online form? The other person doesn't have to agree, even.
I read this on here, happy to be corrected.

www.gov.uk/joint-property-ownership

Frankley · 21/07/2021 11:44

You can apply for Attendance Allowance without any assessment. It is not means tested and you just need to get the form and fill it in with every little detail of his needs. I did this for a relative and the money helped a lot

Original poster
Willsquestion · 22/07/2021 16:21

Thank you @ancientgran.

@DogsSausages @SadAboutSD @Frankley thank you all for your helpful posts. Lots to think about and will start to a list of things to do.
Can I ask, if you covert to tenants in common, would it be considered deprivation of assets by the LA if care was needed in the future??

OP posts:
Frankley · 22/07/2021 17:40

We had converted to tenants in common from joint tenants but had done it some years before care needs were in the offing so l am not sure about deprivation of assets if done later. I just wanted to say that when my husband died and l wanted to get the house in my sole name, l phoned up the Land Registry and asked how to do it. (I knew a solicitor would do it but at what cost?) A very helpful lady sent me forms to fill in with a statement of truth to sign. It was very straightforward and cost absolutely nothing!

LadyLolaRuben · 22/07/2021 17:47

Your mum can write her own Will and arrange a Lasting Power of Attorney.

Frankley · 22/07/2021 18:07

I need to say that although when we did tenants in common and left half of house in trusts , circumstances had changed and l had been left husband's half or it would not have been like that with Land Registry..

Clem4579 · 22/07/2021 20:25

@Willsquestion

Thank you *@ancientgran*. *@DogsSausages* *@SadAboutSD* *@Frankley* thank you all for your helpful posts. Lots to think about and will start to a list of things to do. Can I ask, if you covert to tenants in common, would it be considered deprivation of assets by the LA if care was needed in the future??
No, because there's another very valid reason that someone might wish to be TIC. If one spouse dies, and then the remaining spouse remarries, but then they die, potentially any children from the first marriage could end up with nothing, because the new wife/ husband inherits. Going TIC protects that share of the property for the children.