Police / Lawyer Legal advice urgently needed please 🙏🏽

[Newfor2021]

Hello,
I’d greatly appreciate any advice from someone with a professional background who might be able to offer any advice in these circumstances please?

My son was caught driving his car as a learner driver without a responsible driver / supervisor.

As he’s 17 they de-arrested him at the scene, brought him home, told me (I’d been asleep) and have now fixed an interview date for Wednesday.

My question is there are some mitigating circumstances which will support his reasons as to why he was driving.
Should he just verbalise them in the interview or should he prepare a written statement beforehand? He could also ask some of the people involved to write supporting testimonies - again should he just say these people are prepared to do this or should we gather these before Wednesday?

Thank you in advance for any professional guidance.

A few questions I suspect I will get asked:

He’s planning to plead guilty and at the time apologised profusely and immediately stated why he was going and where he was driving to.

I was going to use the duty solicitor - however I have been advised to ignore their advice to go ‘No comment’ as this will only annoy the police and stop them having the ability to go more lenient on him.

I am in no way supporting or condoning his behaviour!
I am of course dealing with the consequences of his actions - however my child is in his first ever legal trouble and as his mum I will do everything in my power to help and support him from obtaining a criminal record at 17 - as believe it or not he wants to join the police force and this would of course stop him!

I am a magistrate who sits in the adult court and also in the youth court.

As others have said, as a youth under 18 your son is entitled to legal aid. Yes, duty solicitors can be a mixed bag and some are better than others (we all have clear lists of who we would let defend us and who we wouldn't touch with a bargepole!). That said, if you don't know any local solicitors by reputation, the duty solicitor is a starting point. I would however advise asking around locally to select your own solicitor ideally.

Your solicitor can advise you on any potential out of court disposal options that may be available in your local area, I don't know too much about these and what the options are for these particular offences but they usually require an admission of guilt and then the young person working with the youth offending team on preventative work. If that is all completed satisfactorily then the case often doesn't get taken to court or end in an actual conviction. As I say, these are not my area as this all happens before any court process so we know little about it.

My main question is how near to his 18th birthday is he? If this is going to court I would be very very keen to get it in the system asap as there are big delays in the court processes currently. The important thing in terms of any sentencing is whether he is under or over 18 at the date of conviction, not the date of the offence. There are very very different sentencing options available if a person is 17 instead of 18 and these have knock on consequences to how soon the conviction counts as 'spent'/ stays on your record for. Obviously police and courts have access to every conviction but for general purposes after certain timescales convictions drop off your formal 'criminal records' check.

Finally, in court as magistrates sentencing young people we can nearly always tell the difference between those with entrenched criminal behaviour and attitudes and the fundamentally good kid who has made a monumental out of character error of judgement. We were all young once and many of us have or have had teenagers of our own.

Let us know how you get on.

“
Finally, in court as magistrates sentencing young people we can nearly always tell the difference between those with entrenched criminal behaviour and attitudes and the fundamentally good kid who has made a monumental out of character error of judgement. We were all young once and many of us have or have had teenagers of our own.”

Sorry, a little off topic, but how can you tell this when it’s a first offence?

Finally, in court as magistrates sentencing young people we can nearly always tell the difference between those with entrenched criminal behaviour and attitudes and the fundamentally good kid who has made a monumental out of character error of judgement. We were all young once and many of us have or have had teenagers of our own.

Let me guess, their accent, how articulate they are, and what they're wearing play a big part in this don't they? I'm guessing the appearance of the parents too?

How on earth do you avoid basing your judgement on class markers? Because I don't see how it's possible not to.

The important thing in terms of any sentencing is whether he is under or over 18 at the date of conviction, not the date of the offence.

And my understanding is that this is untrue:

yjlc.uk/turning-18-between-conviction-and-sentence/

R v Dennis Obasi [2014] EWCA Crim 581

The Court of Appeal confirmed that the relevant age for the purpose of sentencing is the age at the date of conviction. Where a young person is 17 at the date of conviction and 18 at the time of sentence the ‘relevant age’ for the purpose of sentencing is 17.

Ah, just re-read - you're right! I read your post too fast.

A no comment is fab, actually. Because a well planned interview will provide every opportunity for the suspect to offer an alternative explanation for the situation presented, so it basically makes them look an idiot in the dock when they ‘suddenly recall’ the thing they weren’t prepared to put forward when they had the chance. So it makes them look like a liar - if you’re innocent then what’s wrong with being truthful from the start.

I love a good no comment interview, or prepared statement. Even better when you throw in a bit of CCTV/forensics as the interview progresses. Then the lies start piling up.

It isn’t like TV where everyone coughs. Most go NC, but unless there’s scant evidence available NC isn’t necessarily their friend. And you don’t know how much evidence there is until we decide to disclose it, it doesn’t all have to be declared prior to interview.

It’s only a poor interviewer who gets thrown by a NC.

A no comment is fab, actually. Because a well planned interview will provide every opportunity for the suspect to offer an alternative explanation for the situation presented, so it basically makes them look an idiot in the dock when they ‘suddenly recall’ the thing they weren’t prepared to put forward when they had the chance.

That's if they choose to take the stand.

@Madhatterhouse

“ Finally, in court as magistrates sentencing young people we can nearly always tell the difference between those with entrenched criminal behaviour and attitudes and the fundamentally good kid who has made a monumental out of character error of judgement. We were all young once and many of us have or have had teenagers of our own.”

Sorry, a little off topic, but how can you tell this when it’s a first offence?

Accent, skin colour, clothing etc.

Madhatterhouse

Finally, in court as magistrates sentencing young people we can nearly always tell the difference between those with entrenched criminal behaviour and attitudes and the fundamentally good kid who has made a monumental out of character error of judgement. We were all young once and many of us have or have had teenagers of our own.”

Sorry, a little off topic, but how can you tell this when it’s a first offence?

Accent, skin colour, clothing etc

I can't quote thedancingbear directly as you're the last post.

I don't actually give a toss what clothes someone is wearing, what their accent or skin colour is or where they come from. We see people from all walks of life, in youth court what I care about (once convicted) is what they have done, what led them to do it and how we can stop them doing it again. (Obviously in a trial it's all about whether they have done it or not)

There is a massive difference in attitude between the kids who have overall respect for the law and realise they have made a mistake and those who really could not give a shiny shit about being there and the whole thing is an inconvenience.

Ignoring that, before sentencing we speak to the young person directly, to their appropriate adult in court (usually a parent, sometimes social worker or other family member), and the youth offending team. Before recommending the sentence, the youth offending team speak to many people around the child to work out what is best for them.

You must not forget that in a youth court, the aim of sentencing is very different to adults. For youths our primary aims are to stop re-offending and the welfare of the child. A large proportion of the kids in a youth court are not there because they just felt like doing whatever crime it was, they are there because of underlying reasons and if we can help with those reasons there becomes a chance of changing the path before they become entrenched criminals.

@JustanotherJP thank you so much for sharing your knowledge of the system.

We have a local solicitor and they’re interviewing my son tomorrow day before the police interview in the evening.

I recall the Police saying something along the lines of the Out of Court disposal when they were talking to my son about whether this would effect his career, however the police lady friend said she did a bit of digging and as he had a provisional, insurance etc it’s actually worse for him than if he was 16 and took the car as he has to be deemed an adult within driving convictions..... I guess I’ll know more tomorrow!

Re sentencing.... thank you, that too is a relief To know you take all of that into account.

Thanks wise Mumsnetters for your help and support

Oh and he’s 18 in Oct.... so fingers crossed for a quick court date!

Get a good solicitor. Take the solicitors advice. There was a completely distressing case in Scotland recently where a young girl drove a wee bit drunk, knocked a teen down (no real injury) & thereafter did the right thing, admitted it, plead guilty, was distraught and the teen she knocked down and his family wrote a letter to the judge defending her & saying they believed her contrition & asked for the courts leniency. She was a 1st year student & had never been in trouble.
The judge came down hard & jailed her, she committted suicide in prison.

GET YOUR SON THE BEST SOLICITOR YOU CAN AFFORD. Don't listen to anyone on here preaching, he's young & he's made a mistake. No ones hurt. He'll learn, it's your job to protect him.
Good luck OP 💐

@JustanotherJP

Madhatterhouse

Finally, in court as magistrates sentencing young people we can nearly always tell the difference between those with entrenched criminal behaviour and attitudes and the fundamentally good kid who has made a monumental out of character error of judgement. We were all young once and many of us have or have had teenagers of our own.”

Sorry, a little off topic, but how can you tell this when it’s a first offence?

Accent, skin colour, clothing etc

I can't quote thedancingbear directly as you're the last post.

I don't actually give a toss what clothes someone is wearing, what their accent or skin colour is or where they come from. We see people from all walks of life, in youth court what I care about (once convicted) is what they have done, what led them to do it and how we can stop them doing it again. (Obviously in a trial it's all about whether they have done it or not)

There is a massive difference in attitude between the kids who have overall respect for the law and realise they have made a mistake and those who really could not give a shiny shit about being there and the whole thing is an inconvenience.

Ignoring that, before sentencing we speak to the young person directly, to their appropriate adult in court (usually a parent, sometimes social worker or other family member), and the youth offending team. Before recommending the sentence, the youth offending team speak to many people around the child to work out what is best for them.

You must not forget that in a youth court, the aim of sentencing is very different to adults. For youths our primary aims are to stop re-offending and the welfare of the child. A large proportion of the kids in a youth court are not there because they just felt like doing whatever crime it was, they are there because of underlying reasons and if we can help with those reasons there becomes a chance of changing the path before they become entrenched criminals.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/479874/analysis-of-ethnicity-and-custodial-sentences.pdf.

TL;DR. Certain categories of people get harsher sentences than others, particularly around ethnicity and nationality.

I don't doubt your sincerity, to the extent that I'm sure you're doing the right thing. But I am very sceptical when you start talking about being able to tell the goodies from the baddies. If you're not judging that by how they present - what they are wearing, how they speak, what they (have been advised to) say - then exactly what else is there? I am all ears.

I would much rather JPs restricted sentencing to the character of the offence and other relevant factors such as past conduct, rather than how well the defendants are able to persuade you of their contrition.

thedancingbear - I have not read your link l but have seen a similar report (probably the same one?)

I think attitudes to sentencing have changed massively over the years I have been doing this. I'll be honest, I have heard a few (and I do mean less than five) biased comments from fellow magistrates over several years and I can't remember the last one. On EVERY occasion this has been challenged by me or the third magistrate in the room. The system is not perfect at all, but in addition to all the initial training we do all undergo regular 'CPD' type training and for example, we all underwent mandatory unconscious bias training about two years ago and are really encouraged to challenge anything that shows any bias or unfair treatment. No, it'll never be perfect but there is a very conscious effort to stamp out any unacceptable comments or influences.

I never said I could tell the baddies from the goodies but we do know an awful lot more about youths in sentencing than we do about adults. Remorse and acceptance of what they have done is a part of it but by no means the main part. The youth offending team in my area is brilliant and they do talk to the youth, their family, their school/college etc to in detail get a far better angle on what is actually going on in their lives. Are they at risk because of falling into a 'bad' crowd at school?, are they in fact an instigator, what is their home-life like, do they have stable accommodation /food /family relationships, are they being coerced into the behaviours, are they scared and afraid to speak up, do they attend school, do they have a drug problem themselves, does a family member have a drug problem, is there domestic violence at home etc etc. There are so so many factors as to why youths offend, and most are not just because they felt like it.

Remember the aim is to prevent re-offending and the welfare of the child. By knowing so much about the young person we and the youth offending team can at least try to address the issues.

@allbeachcitygirl

There was a completely distressing case in Scotland recently where a young girl drove a wee bit drunk, knocked a teen down (no real injury) & thereafter did the right thing, admitted it, plead guilty, was distraught and the teen she knocked down and his family wrote a letter to the judge defending her & saying they believed her contrition & asked for the courts leniency. She was a 1st year student & had never been in trouble. The judge came down hard & jailed her, she committted suicide in prison.

I'm not 100% sure which case you refer to but if it's the one I'm thinking it is and which was widely reported on, the young victim was left unconscious in the street with a bleeding head wound, broken eye socket and ankle. Hardly insignificant. The driver didn't stop at the scene either, and was caught as someone noted the registration number.

where a young girl drove a wee bit drunk

..driving more than four times above the legal alcohol limit.

[quote suk44]@allbeachcitygirl

There was a completely distressing case in Scotland recently where a young girl drove a wee bit drunk, knocked a teen down (no real injury) & thereafter did the right thing, admitted it, plead guilty, was distraught and the teen she knocked down and his family wrote a letter to the judge defending her & saying they believed her contrition & asked for the courts leniency. She was a 1st year student & had never been in trouble. The judge came down hard & jailed her, she committted suicide in prison.

I'm not 100% sure which case you refer to but if it's the one I'm thinking it is and which was widely reported on, the young victim was left unconscious in the street with a bleeding head wound, broken eye socket and ankle. Hardly insignificant. The driver didn't stop at the scene either, and was caught as someone noted the registration number.

where a young girl drove a wee bit drunk

..driving more than four times above the legal alcohol limit.[/quote]
So you think it's fine she was sent to prison to be bullied mercilessly & her mental health suffer so much that she committed suicide before her 21st birthday for making a mistake. That she admitted & that her victim didn't want their imprisoned for. Sure. You do you.

Poor girl she must have been terrified, and of course so must the victim have been, such a shame they didn’t listen to the family

@beachcitygirl

Get a good solicitor. Take the solicitors advice. There was a completely distressing case in Scotland recently where a young girl drove a wee bit drunk, knocked a teen down (no real injury) & thereafter did the right thing, admitted it, plead guilty, was distraught and the teen she knocked down and his family wrote a letter to the judge defending her & saying they believed her contrition & asked for the courts leniency. She was a 1st year student & had never been in trouble. The judge came down hard & jailed her, she committted suicide in prison.

GET YOUR SON THE BEST SOLICITOR YOU CAN AFFORD. Don't listen to anyone on here preaching, he's young & he's made a mistake. No ones hurt. He'll learn, it's your job to protect him.
Good luck OP 💐

Thank you so much

Yes, the family of the teen who was hurt said that it could easily have been the other way around as their boy was a similiar age. No one thought she should go unpunished. Loss of license for life, fine & community service perhaps with victims of drink driving.. whatever, but prison. Truly tragic

So you think it's fine she was sent to prison to be bullied mercilessly & her mental health suffer so much that she committed suicide before her 21st birthday for making a mistake.

Please tell me where I said that or even suggested that? Weird take.

I was adding some of the facts of the case which you missed out.

@beachcitygirl

Yes, the family of the teen who was hurt said that it could easily have been the other way around as their boy was a similiar age. No one thought she should go unpunished. Loss of license for life, fine & community service perhaps with victims of drink driving.. whatever, but prison. Truly tragic

For god's sake. No one has suggested or implied that.

You nearly kill someone in your car while pissed, and then drive off from the scene - you go to prison. Prison is horrible. This is fair.

This applies even if you are a white, middle class, woman.

Driving drunk and not stopping at the scene of an accident is a very serious crime. It was a hit and run! She was very lucky that leaving someone lying in the road with a head injury didn't result in his death.

It doesn't matter whether you are young, articulate, white, middle class, at university with a bright future ahead of you..... it's still a bloody serious crime and prison wasn't an unreasonable penalty if the facts above are correct. Justice should be blind, and that should include ignoring the social class / prospects of the perpetrator.

I've now looked up the case and I must say that beachcitygirl's description is hilarious:

drove a wee bit drunk over four times the limit, driving erratically

knocked a teen down (no real injury) just a head injury and broken bones... the 15 year old victim spent months using crutches, and the impact was sufficient to rip the perpetrator's car bumper off. He was very lucky that there were witnesses present who provided assistance as he was knocked unconscious.

& thereafter did the right thing, admitted it drove off, was only caught because her registration plate was seen by the witnesses

I don't see how anything other than a custodial sentence can have been appropriate.

@ReceptacleForTheRespectable

I've now looked up the case and I must say that beachcitygirl's description is hilarious:

drove a wee bit drunk over four times the limit, driving erratically

knocked a teen down (no real injury) just a head injury and broken bones... the 15 year old victim spent months using crutches, and the impact was sufficient to rip the perpetrator's car bumper off. He was very lucky that there were witnesses present who provided assistance as he was knocked unconscious.

& thereafter did the right thing, admitted it drove off, was only caught because her registration plate was seen by the witnesses

I don't see how anything other than a custodial sentence can have been appropriate.

beachcitygirl, you need to be more circumspect in your posting - and learn to read properly. ReceptacleForTheRespectable bothered to look it up and reality bears no relation to your post.

It was tragic that this woman decided to run after she had hit somebody. The consequences could have been so much worse but for the bystanders who assisted the victim.

A bucket of salt on standby for any future posts you make.

I've now looked up the case and I must say that beachcitygirl's description is hilarious

Careful now... I added some of those facts from the court case and was accused of wishing someone's death(!!)