How can I find out what my brother gets charged with and sentenced to?

[Mamboitaliano]

My brother was arrested at the end of July (in Scotland) and charged with possessing indecent images (of children). I don’t know the exact charges but he’s said to mum there were two charges and he expects there will be a third. I don’t know what that means. Needless to say, I was and am shocked to my core and completely heartbroken. Couldn’t stop crying. Feels like I am grieving the person I thought he was. Couldn’t even eat at first and lost a stone in weight.

I live far away so rarely see him and luckily that means my kids don’t really know him. I’m very clear in my mind that he will never see my kids again. I’m in touch with my SIL as she’s an immigrant in this country and has very little support, and is standing by him but is so alone. I have his current number but have nothing to say to him.

Anyway, my question is that my brother and SIL are now apparently saying they won’t be telling us the final charges or court date or the sentence if it’s non custodial. I feel like I really need to know exactly what he’s charged with and the outcome. Is this information a matter of public record in Scotland and how can I access it? I know the court he’ll be called to but don’t want to start every day by checking the court rolls.

Sorry for the horrible topic. I am so angry and upset to be in any way associated with something so grim. I’ve been on Mumsnet for ages but changed my name.

I'm so sorry for what you're going through Mambo💐
Unfortunately I have no legal knowledge so I'm just posting to offer a handhold🤝
This is such a shocking and painful position to be in, give yourself as much time as you need to process everything, it's good that you're putting boundaries in place you must protect yourself.

I would have thought indecent images of children would be custodial.

It will be a matter of public record.

I would have thought indecent images of children would be custodial.

Not necessarily unfortunately. A guy I used to work with was charged with possessing and making indecent images of children and he walked away with a 3 year community order, a six month rehabilitation programme and only 5 years on the sex offenders register.

OP I’m so sorry you’re going through this. It will be public record if I’m correct.

Thank you @RhinoskinhaveI - that’s so kind.

@notapizzaeater I assumed custodial too but keep seeing cases in the local news where offenders get community service and signing the register. It’s his first offence. I personally think it should be a custodial thing, even though there’s part of me that feels devastated at the idea of my little brother being in jail.

What does ‘a matter of public record’ actually mean, please? How would I access that record? I know it’ll be painful but I can’t deal with not knowing. He lives in a small community so it may be in the papers at the time anyway, though I don’t live nearby and might not know when that is if they really do keep it quiet.

it's just so devastating to have your world turned upside down like that, especially when you just had absolutely no idea whatsoever

www.scotland-judiciary.org.uk/8/0/Sentencing-Statements

You can find them here if he's found guilty

I can't speak for Scotland but I'm assuming they have similar to Eng/Wales. Here, we have a 'right to ask' if you are concerned he may have access to your children.

If (and when) he is convicted, even without a prison sentence he will almost definitely be placed on the sex offenders register. If you can argue there is a risk he may spend time with your children or even has been exposed to them beforehand you have a right to apply to his local police force and ask for his convictions to be disclosed to you for safeguarding concerns. They will then decide what, if anything, you can be told balancing your brother's right to a private life against safeguarding concerns or risks. I suspect it will also be in the local paper if he is convicted where you may also be able to find basic details of the offences. If he pleads guilty though there won't be a trial and the details of his offences will not then be disclosed in a public forum. It's only when/if the offence is denied and a trial takes place that all the sordid details would come out.

Such a horribly conflicted situation to be in, please give yourself as much time as you need just to it all in, have you thought about accessing counselling?
The thing about his wife is very tricky, it sounds as if she has little support away from her home country so may have no choice other than to stick by him😔
I hate to say this but people who are predatory have an incentive to seek partners who are are easy to manipulate, if she doesn't know this culture too well she may be very dependent on him, may come from a country where women are much more compliant anyway.

The Scottish legal system is a bloody joke, I'd be very surprised if he receives a custodial sentence.

From personally experience it will definitely be reported in the local press.

He will plead guilty I’m sure as I don’t think he could do otherwise. He was arrested at his house at 7am by 6 officers and his house searched and electronics taken. They will have the evidence and he’s admitted a (minimised) outline of what he’s done (when he told us and his wife I mean).

Thank you for the link to the sentencing statements. I guess even without knowing when, I can keep checking there. That’s very helpful.

I don’t think I could get anything from the police as we live hundreds of miles apart and he’s hardly ever been around my kids (never alone) and never will be again so I’d be hard pressed to say I need to know for safeguarding.

Spot on about his wife being from a traditionally subservient culture. 🙁 And very much being told by her parents to stand by her man. I’d tell my daughter to run a million miles.

I think I might have to consider counselling at some stage. I miss my little brother - the person I thought he was. I knew he was a bit of an odd guy but I thought he was a sort of gentle and good misfit. Turns out I didn’t know him at all.

Any idea how long these things take to come to trial? Ages isn’t it?

Thanks again for your kindness. It really is devastating as unlike some other crimes that can one day potentially be put behind you, this will never go away as we can never know what’s in his mind.

I'd guess it will be

1. possession of indecent images
2. making images
3. distributing images

The (3) would probably be custodial sentence.

I don't know about Scottish law but in England there is a scale, it used to be the copine scale, which had 10 catagories but in England it was reduced to 5 and then to 3.

IMHO that is a mistake, under the copine scale a picture of a child at the beach could be classed as 1 and a single picture would not attract charging as it may be you were taking a pic of the sea and a paddling child wandered in. It would be difficult to prove you had any sexual interest.

The law has also changed in that a picture of a 17 or 18 year old is classed as a a child. So if you google image Sam Fox you will not find any pictures from when she was 16/17 even though topless pictures of her were in a national newspaper.

Sorry for all this waffle. A first offence and level 1 pics for personal use will probably be a community sentence and it will probably include some form of attending a course to examine behaviour.

If Scotland uses the 1-3 scale then this will be stated in court and probably be reported by local press. And if any images are at level 3 the press will say, "the worst level"

I don't mean to sound as though I am minimising, I learned about the copine scale the hard way when I foolishly allowed someone to borrow my computer at uni.

It also lead to me thinking the law needs to be looked at. 'Image' can be a photograph, but also a drawing or a cartoon.

I have read Game of Thrones, I have seen the TV series. When Daenerys is first married she is 13 in the book. In the TV series she is played by an adult. So you can watch the TV scene and it isn't illegal, you can read the chapter in the book, again not illegal, but if you were to draw or paint the scene from your imagination you would have created an indecent image of a child and this image would be classed as level 3 (formally 5).

A couple of 17 year old 'sexting' can both end up with convictions for possessing, making and distributing indecent images.

And at the same time people with huge collections of child abuse get the same conviction as the 17 year old.

OP

Sorry your brother's behaviour has done this to your family. It can't be easy but I'm sure you are better off knowing about it and they could have not told you.

We always think we could spot someone who is, well insert word of choice, and it comes as a shock when you realise that the nice person you know/knew isn't the person you thought and that you can't spot it.

Thanks for the really detailed answer @sashh

I had heard about the scale and Mum, whom he’s probably told the most, says it’s ‘pretty bad’ in terms of type of image. She’s very innocent though so I don’t know how accurate that is or how truthful he’s being (probably not very). I don’t fully know what ‘making’ images involves but I did ask him right at the start if any innocent family images of my children from Facebook were used and he said no. Needless to say he and his wife are blocked on there now and I’ve also deleted all my pics. Overreaction probably but I just feel like this has taught me you never know who you can trust. At this stage it wouldn’t surprise me if it was ‘distributing’ too. You’re right I can’t think how else there would be separate charges. I’m confused about the system as apparently the charges will be set before he goes to court but I always thought they were set after you got arrested.

He would probably never have told me but when he got arrested he - as far as we knew - went ‘missing’ which is where I got involved. He didn’t turn up for work. We tried to find him, feeling very worried. Then it transpired he was in police custody but we (including his wife) had no idea why and had to wait for court the next afternoon, when the details came out. I feel completely stupid at the things I told myself it must be when he Was in custody. Like maybe he keyed his ex boss’s car or shouted something rude at him!

If you know the court and date you should be able the court and find out. Bless you x

Op. Again I only know for Eng/Wales and can't speak for Scotland but believe it will be similar.

An arrest is made when there is a suspicion of an offence. It is in no way a declaration of guilt and often times the information available means they will arrested for a certain offence but as the investigation progresses other or alternative offences are identified. At the point that police or CPS feel there is enough evidence to prove guilt, the person will be charged. It is at this point all the evidence is considered and the most suitable offences will be selected. For instance, your brother may have been arrested because he had an image on his phone that someone saw and reported to police. Once arrested his electronics are seized and reviewed and more stuff is found identifying further offences.

To the pp poster talking about the sexual offences, just a couple of points to add some clarity. There is indeed legislation meaning 2 17 yr olds could be convicted for sending images of themselves to each other. However, all charges must pass something called the 'public interest test'. If dealing with this offence is not on the public interest then cps will not take it to court. And likewise lower forms of disposal like cautions etc will not be used against two consenting 17yr olds. Because it is legal to have sex at 16 and it wouldn't be considered. Bear in mind the law is set at 'gold standard' but there are lots of factors that effect that.

In addressing the GOT art - if you drew the 13 year old in a fight scene or some other innocent scene there you could not be convicted. If however you drew the same picture with the 13 year old exposing herself 'for sexual gratification' only then does it come under the act. Of course that is something that could be discussed all day but it simply isn't true that the act of drawing a child alone is enough to get you convicted

I don’t fully know what ‘making’ images involves

Downloading and or printing.

In addressing the GOT art

Sorry I wasn't clear, I was thinking of the wedding night scene.

I realise it is unlikely 2 17 year olds would get a conviction if it went to court, someone else would need to know about the pic for a start, but I spent a number of years teaching teenagers who needed a CRB (then DBS) and came across a few with cautions that would not be in the public interest had they gone to the CPS, one had an 'assault' that was a fairly nasty shouting match with a parent in public which IMHO should not stop you going on to become a nurse.

So is making images always alongside possessing them then? If it’s downloading? I’m sometimes torn between wanting to know his convictions and never wanting to know any more about it. But I think on balance I need to know.

I'm thinking back to someone I used to know, there were some business trips to Thailand and then he quickly married a Thai woman, I didn't think anything of it at the time but looking back, some of the comments he made about sexual preferences/young girls were just a bit off, it was well over a decade ago and I was much less cynical then 😔

You can find out the court date ring the court and ask the. After ring and ask the charges and outcome

That’s interesting. I didn’t know you could just phone up and ask.

Thank you all for your help.

I hope you can find a way through this Mambo💐

It's likely to be published in the local media once he attends court.

Indecent images of children is really a polite way of saying he has accessed material of children in states of undress and being forced to engage in sexual activity.

Be glad you're kids aren't around him

Yes I know what the crime involves, I’m under no illusions.