How can I find out what my brother gets charged with and sentenced to?

[Mamboitaliano]

My brother was arrested at the end of July (in Scotland) and charged with possessing indecent images (of children). I don’t know the exact charges but he’s said to mum there were two charges and he expects there will be a third. I don’t know what that means. Needless to say, I was and am shocked to my core and completely heartbroken. Couldn’t stop crying. Feels like I am grieving the person I thought he was. Couldn’t even eat at first and lost a stone in weight.

I live far away so rarely see him and luckily that means my kids don’t really know him. I’m very clear in my mind that he will never see my kids again. I’m in touch with my SIL as she’s an immigrant in this country and has very little support, and is standing by him but is so alone. I have his current number but have nothing to say to him.

Anyway, my question is that my brother and SIL are now apparently saying they won’t be telling us the final charges or court date or the sentence if it’s non custodial. I feel like I really need to know exactly what he’s charged with and the outcome. Is this information a matter of public record in Scotland and how can I access it? I know the court he’ll be called to but don’t want to start every day by checking the court rolls.

Sorry for the horrible topic. I am so angry and upset to be in any way associated with something so grim. I’ve been on Mumsnet for ages but changed my name.

I hate to say this but what you know may be just the tip of the iceberg, do you think there are concerns he may have abused his own children?
This must be excruciating for your parents and for you, the terrible conflict between the instinct to protect your loved ones at all costs and the horror of these sorts of crimes,

He may not get custodial but it depends how bad they are....6 officers though does sound like he has at least been distributing and prob at the bad end of the scale.

He will also be put on the sex offenders register and have to notify police of his residence each time he moves and will also be monitored.

Getting a job post sentence will be difficult it it involved any convictions check but he should have thought about it

The sentencing statements are only for big high court cases. His trial may be in the Sheriff court and if he pleads guilty there may not be any need for a trial, just a sentence. You may never find out what he did or got.

OP I'm so sorry for you.

If you think it might cry in the local press you can set up a google alert for his name and you'll get an email if his name comes up.

Might save you having to tie yourself in knots checking all the time.

www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/how-can-you-check-your-12618126

You can ask

The result and sentence will be published, can takes many months even years though

@RhinoskinhaveI Fortunately he doesn’t have children. Nor is he really around children. So I don’t feel worried there’s more but I’m not the kind of person who thinks ‘only’ online is lesser anyway - they’re still real children.

The Google alert is a really good idea. Thank you.

I know you can ask if someone has a conviction but in this case I’d know he had a conviction just not the details.

If he admits guilt, he will not go to court, and it won’t be reported in the press.

He will of course be sentenced which you can find out through the other links posted.

are not enough, but so sorry to hear that you’re going through this.

The court rolls are available online, provides persons details and date of appearance, likely this would be reported in a local newspaper if he lives in a smaller town and not a big city. My local paper reports all these cases.

Your mum could attend court if she wanted to, I think courts are public places.

I really hope whatever happens that mum doesn’t go to court. I want her far away from this whole thing.

It’s my understanding that in Scotland even if he admits it (which I feel sure he will have to) he still goes to court. And I’m sure I’ve seen cases in the papers that are published even though the person pleaded guilty. It’s so confusing with the Scottish system being different.

We had a situation recently where a relative was charged and sent to prison on remand. Both the courts and police refused to give any information on where this person was and when the prison was phoned (we assumed Cornton Vale since we thought it was only women's prison in Scotland, but were wrong) they would not confirm or deny if she was a prisoner there.

My relative resorted to scouring the court rolls everyday, I think she said they are available 5 days in advance, and turning up and sitting all day until she was called in order to get more information. We will have to do the same when the trial happens.

The sentencing I have seen for possessing child abuse images is almost always non custodial.

Yes, if he pleads guilty he will have to go to court to be sentenced. It is likely they will ask for pre sentencing reports to be made by social work and probabtion service to help with sentencing. The local papers might publish what his crime and sentence are or they might not.

I went to Crown Court when my gs's dad was in trouble yet again. It is the only way you will find out the full story but it is harrowing. I was warned not to go, it was an assault on a man with learning difficulties and an attack on a local sportsman six months later.

The injuries the man suffered were terrible and we heard the victim impact statement. The young man with learning difficulties could not cope giving evidence and so he has found not guilty. He laughed and vaulted over the barrier of the court when he got off. He had also assaulted another man with a blow to the head, who could not of course remember enough about the incident.

He had also threatened and intimidated the witnesses, had been banned from every off licence in the area and pubs, was subject to a curfew, drove home drunk from court down the motorway and actually told the Crown Court that he had midweek contact with my gs and he needed to provide childcare. He did not and I was able to correct this with the CPS.

The report in family court contained limited information and the truth was much worse than we thought. Whilst it is not the same sensitive offence op, you may hear some things you really wish you hadn't. I am sorry for you.

I don't understand some of these replies.

The link is for unusual cases where the sheriff asks for a sentence statement to be released. Very rare.

The comment about it will be published, may take years? What does that mean?

The comment it won't go to court and it won't be reported if he pleads guilty??? That is incorrect.

So, basic summary.

Sheriff court, high court. Sheriff court is either summary or solemn proceedings, the later being more serious. High court for more serious than that, so three layers if you like. Police investigate, refer to fiscal, they raise the proceedings.

Is he on bail just now do you know?

Solemn cases can take up to a year to get to court.

It's complicated. Keeping it basic, summary, he gets papers either as a bail undertaking in court (so he's released by police on bail till then) or they are posted to him. Solemn either bail as before or served on him.

Summary he pleads not guilty, intermediate and trial fixed. Pleads guilty, social work report called for and either remanded or bailed pending that then sentenced.

Solemn, first diet calls, he again enters plea, follow as above.

He will have to attend court. Very low speeding and traffic matters in the even lower justice court are really the only place you wouldn't appear.

Re reporting. Agree with google alerts. Follow the local paper on Facebook.

If you know the court search the court rolls for the coming week every Sunday then watch the local press that week. Unless there is some massive local crime wave it will be reported.

I'm typing one fingered on maternity leave holding baby, court solicitor. Scotland. Happy to answer questions if I can.

OP I’m so sorry to read your news and I totally understand your need to know. A friend of ours was convicted about 10 years ago - it was kept very, very quiet and while people knew he had been arrested, charged, found guilty and sentenced for crimes pertaining to children, his actual convictions have never been made public in any way. There was never any reporting at all and even locally people don’t know. The reason was very simple - to protect his kids. I know you said your brother doesn’t have kids, but I guess it just shows that sometimes things are kept quiet. (Former friend served half his sentence and got out after about 4 years)

For those in Scotland in the know I have a question. A former neighbour of mine in Scotland was arrested, charged, found guilty and sentenced for possessing and making indecent images of children about 6 years ago. He did not receive a custodial sentence. His wife stayed by him. He has 3 kids (who at the time were P1/P3 I think). He lives opposite a primary school and to my knowledge he never left the family home. He certainly was in the school for drops off/pick up and school events at least in the last 3/4 years. How is that possible? Surely he would have been on the register and would have had to stay away from kids?

I know some parents were very concerned and asked the school but got a brush off and were told there was nothing to worry about and nothing they could be told

@AstrosFan

So when convicted of such an offence they are made subject to sex offenders register which has certain requirements they must follow. Usually, notify the police with certain info, name etc, notify of any changes, including eg a holiday. They are then monitored by the police and social worker.

There may have been children's hearing involvement re their own children.

More commonly recently, and certainly for repeat offenders a sexual offences prevention order is also sought. That is the order which prohibits certain activities such as use of Internet, proximity to school, employment etc.

So it sounds like he was placed on register and no further order was sought in that case.

That’s really helpful - thanks Moobar. I’m not going to lie, I was hyper vigilant once I knew and I am not sorry at all that we’ve moved away from that street/area now.

@moobar Thank you so so much for replying, and sorry it's taken me a while to get back to you. I'd like to pretend I didn't see your message sooner or something, but the truth is that actually I just find it excruciating to think about and have been burying my head in the sand for a while! Anyway...

I particularly appreciate hearing from you due to your job, and the fact it's in Scotland! Things seem so different between Scotland and England.

So he was arrested right at the end of July - I'm told there were 6 police officers. Does that reflect the level of the offence at all? Or just that it's a small town with not much happening. They searched his home and took his devices, but didn't take any of hers. Is that normal? She said it was obvious (she was not there at the time) that they had looked through her devices, but everything on them is in a different language so maybe that ruled them out.

He was kept overnight in police cells and went to court the next day, which was held in private. Again, is this normal?

He was then 'bailed' except there was no bail money, just conditions that he has to let the police know about any devices and that he is not allowed to be unsupervised around children. Whilst he does not have children, there is a child in the wider family and he has on two occasions stayed overnight in the house with family members including this child. I'm very unhappy about this as I don't feel this counts as being 'supervised' - am I wrong? I don't feel the child is in danger but I don't think he should be staying in the same house.

What's the procedure for what happens next? Would it be another police on the doorstep situation, or will he get court papers posted to him? I think he will plead guilty.

Any idea how long this could all take? It's coming up on 4 months now. How do we know if it will be summary or solemn?

I have set up Google alerts for his name and will look through the court roll once a week.

I just want it to be over. I want to know the very worse, and know what his sentence is and whether it hits the media, and then carry on with my life with all the painful knowledge to carry and deal with however I can. It won't change how I handle things (I'm very clear on no contact) but I hate the unknowns.

@Mamboitaliano I'm so sorry you are going through this.
A young male relative of mine )18 at the time) was charged with similar offences and plead guilty (also in Scotland). It still resulted in high court appearance and all info was in public domain. He was sentenced to 4 years

A court is a public building and court listings are public. Convictions aren't private I work in a magistrates court in England. Anyone can sit in the public gallery when court is in session and often people waiting for their cases to be heard are sat in court together along with members of the public. Only cases involving those under 18 are confidential. You can call the court give his name and address and they should be able to give you a court date or court outcome once his case has been heard. As I said a court house is a public building and adult cases are heard in the public interest and not confidential

Wow @feelinghelplesstoday - four years?! I've never heard of such a sentence for images. If anything, I've been surprised by how lenient the sentences seem and have even worried that my brother will feel he's got away with it if he gets some of the sentences I've seen.

@Banana1984 I didn't know the court could give me that information, thank you. I wonder why his initial hearing (the day after he got arrested) was held in private though? He's in his 30s. My SIL and two other relatives were at the court and were initially sitting in a court but he wasn't coming up, and then when they asked when his case would be heard they were sent to wait in the hallway while his hearing was held in private in another court, not the one they'd been in.

@Mamboitaliano I think it was down to the huge number of images

No problem @Mamboitaliano

Ok, re her devices, they would have intelligence linked to IP address which is device specific. So they would go for those.

Six police officers, no idea. Quiet day? People training. Doesn't necessarily mean much.

He's solemn procedure, he appeared in private so that's the position. So now fiscal will be preparing case and has up to 10 months to fix a preliminary hearing and must commence trial within 12 months.

Periods shorter if in custody.

No bail money Scotland. The bail condition question is interesting, it depends how it's worded. If it says must not be in same household or just says no unsupervised contact. You could contact local police anonymously and raise it as a concern.

He will have a solicitor. Papers go to them and a copy served on him. Solicitors may be in process of negotiations with fiscal anyway.