Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

Legal matters

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you have any legal concerns we suggest you consult a solicitor.

Flip

1 2

Original poster

'Letter of Claim' from BW Legal

28 replies

LiverpoolVictoria · 14/06/2019 13:43

I know there are thousands of threads on parking charges etc, but I can't find anything recent and my head is swimming...

On the 24th April 2014 I parked to collect a parcel from the Post Office. To get to the Post Office parking spots you have to go through a gym car park, which had a Parking Eye camera.
Normally it takes 5-10 mins to get a parcel, but there was a queue and I was about 20 mins. My husband sat in the car during this time.

I received letters about unauthorised entry after this, but as everyone did at the time I just ignored them.

I haven't had anything for a couple of years, but in the last 2 weeks I have received 2 letters. The last one says it's a 'LETTER OF CLAIM' and that they have been instructed to commence legal action if I don't pay, and won't inform me any further, and I will only know about it when I get a letter from the court.

I'm not usually bothered by this, but this letter is really threatening, it's even got sheets on working out your income and expenditure, and numbers for Citizens Advice and Stepchange!

I have just spoken to the Post Office, and they said without a tracking number (which I don't have) they can't prove I picked up a parcel. They also don't know if they have CCTV still of me collecting the parcel, and if they did they don't know if it can be released.

I am happy to call the 'legal' people on the letter, but is it worth it? Will they then see they have rattled me and go after me even more?

I just don't know what to do, and now I can't 'prove' I got the parcel how would I even fight it if it did go to court?!

OP posts:

Collaborate · 14/06/2019 13:53

Have a look at this www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/private-parking-tickets/

DontPressSendTooSoon · 14/06/2019 13:55

Don't pay anything until you get a letter from the court.

Then pay up or fight it.

99% of the time they don't go to court action. They are massive chancers.

TheInvestigator · 14/06/2019 14:00

So, you didn't dispute the charge as unfair? You just ignored it?

Unless it was unfair and you have proof that it was unfair (like they were in breach of the posted parking restrictions) then you can be made to pay. Entering the car park signals an agreement with their posted parking restrictions. If you breached that contract, they can invoice you. They can take you to court and they do win. Ignoring the charge means they might not take it any further because they can't get your details from the DVLA, but this firm are a member of the trade body and obviously for your details so it looks like they are going to take it all the way. You need to pay it because you've not got any evidence of your visit, or evidence to show it's unfair.

Collaborate · 14/06/2019 14:08

Entering the car park signals an agreement with their posted parking restrictions. No it doesn't. It is only binding if the signage is reasonably apparent.

If you look at the link I posted you'll see the various defences you can use. Get hold of a copy of their original notice to you.
The notice must—
(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;
(b)inform the driver of the requirement to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and describe those charges, the circumstances in which the requirement arose (including the means by which it was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made those charges payable;
(c)inform the driver that the parking charges relating to the specified period of parking have not been paid in full and specify the total amount of the unpaid parking charges relating to that period, as at a time which is—
(i)specified in the notice; and
(ii)no later than the time specified under paragraph (f);
(d)inform the driver of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available;
(e)identify the creditor and specify how and to whom payment may be made;
(f)specify the time when the notice is given and the date.

Original poster

LiverpoolVictoria · 14/06/2019 14:23

I didn't dispute it as I'd not done anything wrong. I went to the post office and didn't use the gym, the parking eye is for the gym. You have to drive past the gym to get to the post office, which means going past their parking eye.

I've attached a (bad) diagram of the parking situation. I drove in, parked at the post office, got my parcel and left. Because I was 20 minutes they're trying to claim I used the gym, but I didn't. They just logged me going in and leaving, and that is their defence that I used the gym.

5 years ago there were a lot of stories saying to ignore these people, so I did.

Collaborate - I think they did all those things, but 5 years ago so my memory is a little hazy. But I didn't use the car park they claimed?

OP posts:

justanswerthephone · 14/06/2019 14:29

I didn't dispute it as I'd not done anything wrong.

The fact that you did nothing wrong would be good reason to dispute it. That's the very meaning of the word.

Original poster

LiverpoolVictoria · 14/06/2019 14:49

But you hear stories that they will just say 'sorry, you still have to pay' even if you shouldn't, and if you engage with them it keeps the threats coming even harder as they've made contact.

Around that time - 5 years ago - no-one paid these charges, everyone said to ignore the letters, so I did. Even Martin Lewis!

It's only recently that people are saying to not ignore them, that the companies are now taking people to court, which is why I'm now worried.

If I now contact them and explain things they'll say 'prove it' and I can't as it was so long ago.

OP posts:

TheInvestigator · 14/06/2019 15:20

Martin Lewis didn't tell people to ignore them. He told people to gather the evidence to show the charge was unfair/not applicable and send it in. I'm sure his website used to say "people will tell you to ignore them but I advise against that".

TheInvestigator · 14/06/2019 15:21

You didn't prove it at the time, and now you can't. So you can take your chance fighting them in court or pay the fee. Parking Eye have taken a lot of people to court and they win, unless you can afford to pay for a defence. Their lawyers do this all day, every day; they know what they are doing and they know how to win. If you defend yourself with no proof then you won't win.

WitsEnding · 14/06/2019 15:25

The post office may not have cctv, but if you had visited the gym wouldn't they have proof of that? My gym has card-swipe entry gates.

magicstar1 · 14/06/2019 15:29

Would you have an old email that has the tracking number of your parcel showing when you collected it?

AnthonyCrowley · 14/06/2019 15:31

I know quite a lot about this as I run a Facebook group for people fighting car parking tickets from a specific car park. The legal firm the parking firm contractor at this car park use is BW legal. They are extremely litigatous and will take you to court if you've received a letter before claim.

You really ought to defend the letter before claim to try and stop it going to court. If it goes to court unless you know what you're talking about they are likely to win.

You need to send a SAR to the parking firm involved and ask them for all evidence of any parking infringement. They need to provide you with photos of your car parked in the gym car park and if you say you didn't park there then they won't be able to provide them. I wouldn't communicate with BW. When you send your SAR to the parking firm tell them you are disputing it as you did not park in the gym car park but st the post office (which I assume has no restrictions). Are you sure the P.O. parking bit isn't covered by some time limit, etc? It's up to them to prove the offence. You don't have to prove your innocence but you must defend it.

A SAR is a request for all information they have on you. If you google car parking SAR template you will find examples. If you struggle message me your email address.

If you also want your letter before claim professionally defended I know a legal rep I can recommend. Think he charges about £25 for a defence letter.

AnthonyCrowley · 14/06/2019 15:33

And who the hell would go to the gym for only 20 minutes? Would be the worst workout ever!

Collaborate · 14/06/2019 15:33

Whoever thought you staying 20 minutes meant that you hadn't gone in to the post office has clearly never had to stand in line in a post office queue.

Reallybadidea · 14/06/2019 15:33

Around that time - 5 years ago - no-one paid these charges, everyone said to ignore the letters, so I did. Even Martin Lewis!

That's just not true. I got a PCN in 2012 and the advice online that I followed was that it was better to dispute it than ignore it.

From your OP it sounds as though they chased you for about 3 years and never did anything about it. It probably was unfair in the first place but you took a risk by ignoring it and unfortunately it sounds as though you made the wrong call.

AnthonyCrowley · 14/06/2019 15:35

m.box.com/shared_item/https%3A%2F%2Fapp.box.com%2Fs%2F4qpj4ujzcb1gemd2h3glnremjq5qbj0s

Your SAR wants to be something like this. Tweak it to personalise it, I would also take a photo of your driving licence and attach that. You can do it all via email and attach an electronic photo of your licence. They tend to ask for proof of iD before they will comply with the request.

TheInvestigator · 14/06/2019 15:38

An actual PCN is from the council and the law stands behind them, so you never ignore a PCN. OP got a private invoice from a parking firm. The advice still wasn't to ignore it though; you needed to dispute if they were able to get your details from the DVLA.

Original poster

LiverpoolVictoria · 14/06/2019 15:50

magicstar1 - I did speak to the post office today and they said the same thing, and I looked back to the emails I had then but don't have anything.

I know they sent a photo at the time that logged the time I went in, and one that logged when I left, and this was about 20 mins.

Would they have to prove I parked in one of their 'spots'? As you have to drive past their camera to get to the post office parking spots, and that's all they have.

AnthonyCrowley - Thank you for the info, I will have a look!

OP posts:

AnthonyCrowley · 14/06/2019 15:52

Yes, they need photos of you in one of their spots. Without that there is no case. Which is why the SAr is important because a lot of the time they will think "oh shit" at that point and drop it.

In your SAR tell them you specifically want evidence that you were parked in a gym spot.

smallereveryday · 14/06/2019 16:13

Please follow Anthony Crowley's advice OP and don't give up and pay these leechy bastards.

Take advice from people who actually know what the they are talking about - people like Anthony Crowley or Collaborate (who's a lawyer) MN appears to be heaving with the self righteous holier than thous - with money to burn at the moment.

Ultimately- if they were to take it right up to court with no proof that you parked in the gym and a 20 minute stop.. which hardly gives you time to change your shoes , they would have incurred a lot of costs for a nil outcome as most Judges have a fair amount of common sense.. they work on bullying and fear. Stand up to them OP.

Original poster

LiverpoolVictoria · 14/06/2019 16:20

Great! Thanks all! ☺

I would rather go to court and pay all the fees if I lost than pay up now! Obviously I will get a SAR done and posted off first!

I did take a national insurance company to small claims court once as they would only pay half my claim, and I won that, and they even sent a solicitor to defend them!

The judge took one look at the paperwork, looked at her and said 'What are you authorised to settle for?' and she was shocked and said 'Nothing, I have all this evidence' and he said 'Go outside, call them and ask what you can settle for'.

They settled for what it would have cost to just pay the claim I made in the first place, but would have been out of pocket for the solicitor...and she looked like she had an overnight case too....so there would have also been a hotel cost!

OP posts:

LauraMipsum · 14/06/2019 16:30

They are the claimant, so the burden of proof is on them to show that you did use the gym car park, not on you to show you didn't. (Although it is only on the civil standard of the balance of probabilities - is it more likely than not, not beyond reasonable doubt.)

If they can't, then they have no claim and you can make an application for the claim to be struck out.

It is do-able yourself but AnthonyCrowley is totally right, make a SAR and you may find that they don't even bother to lodge.

When you send your reply to the letter before claim, you can ask for pre-commencement disclosure. You may want to ask for the number of other motorists caught in the hour you were, and how it compares to the average number (because if there was a queue of people waiting 20 minutes they should have a spike in numbers).

You could also ask for disclosure of their policy and procedure on how to avoid false positives arising from a queue.

I've seen similar set ups and the defendants they like are the ones who won't turn up and defend it. If you look like you are going to defend it, and you are asking awkward questions, they are less likely to lodge a claim against you.

DontPressSendTooSoon · 14/06/2019 17:34

I disputed an old ticket from parking eye on the basis that I could not be certain it was I driving the car as it was such a long time ago I simply could not remember.

They went away with their tail between their legs!

So this defence is certainly worth a try with old tickets

AnthonyCrowley · 14/06/2019 21:01

Claiming lack of knowledge of driver ID no longer works though it used to. Parking firms are allowed to fine the registered keeper now in these circumstances.

DontPressSendTooSoon · 15/06/2019 06:45

It worked for me AnthonyCrowley.... BW Legal obviously decided it was not worth it to fight and took nfa

Flip

1 2