Litigation Loans to fund divorce

[Highlandheath]

Any views, experiences, recommendations please, or do these contribute to what Mostyn describes in JvJ as "gross leaching of costs" and solicitors charging for nothing but time?

It is very hard to generalise. Most of my email involve me getting some kind of contract off a file, checking it, looking at the previous emails, thinking about the law, probably looking up a court case and then preparing and then checking the email. Sometimes fees are not based on time spent either. My smallest amount of time today was for a phone call of advice and that was £40.

I’ve been querying my bill since before sols ditched me - but I offered to pay £5k gesture of goodwill as sols were refusing to release my files. I’ve queried my bill in complaint to firm. I’ve queried my bill via LO. LO were telling firm to answer my questions, firm were stalling, LO person dealing went off sick. I went back to firm direct asking for info saying I believe my account is Overpaid - I have sent several letters chasing. All is just ignored.

Now getting pissed off that it’s prob taken a year to get here and basically achieved nothing. So want to get this sorted. Firm just ignore so how else do I get this dealt with - maybe stage a sit in at their office?

LO have dealt with a 2nd part to my case their decision is bullshit. My MH is not good at the moment so Im finding it difficult to deal with this.

Perhaps you should pay them, then you will have your file.

@Jack65

Perhaps you should read the thread properly!

I did pay them a £5k gesture of goodwill - they also held £650k from the sale of my home - I got my files sent in November - luckily I got my October hearing adjourned - they confirmed they were holding my file under a lien - I’ve also seen the files I believe they sent - a complete mess - duplicate papers, missing papers not a complete record of events.

But that’s ok they were doing everything they could to ease the stress I was under having to find new representation in 8 weeks - they fully understood the impact this had on my already vulnerable MH - after all they had dealt with abusive cases before! And I’ve just seen another flying pig!

So far all legals commenting on this thread are doing a pretty good job of corroborating everything us joe bloggs are saying completely by themselves with their smart arse and insensitive comments!

Jack, that's a classic! Yes of course, they won't give up the files... then Greenberet can't get to the bottom of the mess they have made, and of course they will hold the files, mine did the same, and the litigation loan means they sols have you over a barrel, you have to get another litigation loan to pay off the first litigation loan before you can leave the sols who have screwed up the case!

So, Jack, you are aware from following this thread, that Greenberet's child is suicidal, and there is abuse involved, but you can't resist a snarky sol style dig at her for daring to question the work the sols have done in putting her in the position she is in... Do you guys take empathy and compassion bypass 101 as part of your training?

Greenberet, I would suggest you head over to the Information Commissioners Office Website download their template letter and see if you can get the information via an Subject Access Request. Lien or no lien they are holding personal information on you and you are entitled to all of it. Ask for: Telephone Attendance and file notes, and all correspondence with yourself, and any third parties, to be sent to you, they have a month to do it, if they don't, place a complaint to the ICO and explain if it gets to the point where you have to complain, how they have held your files when you were querying the amount and how detrimental that has been to your and your MH. This is another reasons the sols love these loans so much, they have you trapped once you sign, but for the loan you could move solicitors and sort out the payment later once you had been through the files and checked what was reasonable..

On another note re billing..... Could the sols on this thread explain the rationale behind this: Mr Creosote of super patrician London family law firm, has billed me repeatedly for "attending counsel by telephone", so has Ms Munster. When I look at the telephone attendance notes from both Counsel and from Mr Creosote's firm, I can see that in the "attending" section there is Ms Munster, Counsel, Junior Counsel, but no sign of Mr Creosote, anywhere.... Now Mr Creosote has billed me his full rate of £550 per hour, for "attending counsel and junior counsel by telephone", and bless him, he has spent hours "attending counsel by telephone" on my behalf, in his bills... - but neither Counsel, or Ms Munster, noticed he was there - which would be difficult, he is loud, dim and large.... When I noticed this little anomaly I thought: OK Ms Munster's a bit slack, and clearly way too posh to be careful, so she might have forgotten to put Mr Creosote's name on the telephone attendance note, he's only Senior Partner in her firm, but Counsel and Junior Counsel (who did not charge for the time but was on the attendance notes as present) are a bit more with it... so I asked for their attendance notes too, and checked, nope, despite billing thousands of pounds for "attending counsel by telephone" neither Ms Munster, Counsel or Junior Counsel's attendance notes have him present.... So, I am guessing that solicitors can charge for their attendance "IN SPIRIT", and this is what Mr Creosote was doing, and there's a very good and obvious reason for it, that I'm too stupid to understand?

It's quite an interesting issue these days of email. I have never really understood why any client of mine would want the file (no one has ever asked either) as every single thing I send out to the client or other side is copied to the client so they already have the file. In other words for my work the lien is meaningless whereas your local garage will certainly not be giving up the car unless you pay the bill so they have a more effective lien, I suppose.

I just don't work if people don't pay me and my clients are all businesses and they do pay, so it's not the issue it is in other areas of law.

Xenia Same here.

I think there is an exception under the DP to those ho my exercise a lien.

Highlandheath There is a difference between a meeting, which the senior partner (who you give a disparaging name to) did not attend, and apparently did not bill for, and subsequent telephone conversations that he/she did have and which he/she did bill for. The barrister will not itemise in their bill all of the individual calls, but that is because barristers invoice different to solicitors. They are paid for conferences, drafting, and hearings. There is a single fee for each, often determined after the work has been done. If the barrister has had to spend hours on the phone that may be recorded as preparation, but inevitably the barrister will want to be paid more.

Mr Creosote's bills are a thing unto themselves, if it wasn't so detrimental to me and the children it would be funny! As well as attending counsel by telephone (in spirit, though not in reality) He repeatedly bills for "considering a whole raft of issues", the weariness is palpable... thank heavens he was paid so well for it! he "drafts correspondence" ad infinitum, although what correspondence is never specified, he "considers the file" a great deal, infact he spends hours and hours considering the file, I can imagine him sitting there gazing at the ring binder, considering its form, and function, he never goes anywhere alone so often, if Miss Munster is going to see counsel, he hoiks himself across the Inns of Court to pay a visit too, and comments on the quality of the biscuits in Counsel's office. Often though he simply can't make it into the office, at all and Ms Munsters copy emails bounce back, boing boing! But of course, he's worth every penny!

Collaborate, you have completely got the wrong end of the stick.

Let me clarify: Mr Creosote billed for being on telephone calls with Counsel. But he was not on those calls.

I was on some of the calls and know he was not on the calls. For the calls I was not on I checked Counsel and Junior Counsel's attendance notes, and neither have noted Mr Creosote as being in attendance. I have checked Mr Creosote's firm's attendance notes, and he is not shown as being in attendance on those either.

From this I deduce that Mr Creosote billed repeatedly for being on telephone calls that he WAS NOT ACTUALLY ON.

So, my question is, can Mr Creosote and other solicitors bill for being in attendance "in spirit"?

Here's another of Mr Creosote's classic. I was attacked violently by my ex - I'm sure collaborate will consider that given I dare question the legal profession - I probably deserved it. Mr Creosote was given the Forensic Medical report which gave a clear indication of the scope and ferocity of the attack, without going into pornographic detail. The Forensic Medical report was produced by a Senior Consultant at the Major London Hospital I went to. Now the consultant and I really thought that was probably enough detail. Mr Creosote wanted more, he was provided with the full, 30 page report, with diagrams. Mr Creosote wanted photos. Of my injuries, which were to my vagina and anus.. That's all normal right? He was justified, right? I refused. Mr Creosote was not pleased. Mr Creosote sits as a Judge in the family court.

I was about to respond to your 8:33 post with some helpful advice, but in view of your comments about me in your 8:44 post I think I’ll keep that advice to myself.

To be super clear re the bills.

On X dates on my bills Mr Creosote billed me for "attending counsel by telephone"

On the same dates Ms Munster and Counsel also billed me for the telephone conferences. Junior Counsel did not bill me, by prior agreement, she was in attendance to get experience.

The file notes for the telephone calls on those same dates provided by both Mr Creosote's firm and Counsel and Junior Counsel, indicate who was in attendance. Mr Creosote's name does not appear on them.. So he has billed for being in attendance on the calls but his own firm's file notes along with those of counsel and junior counsel, do not indicate him as being on those calls in the "attendance" section, which indicates, in both counsel and his firm's notes the names of those on the call. Reading the content of the file notes, he is not mentioned there either, the notes describe the conversation, and detail who said what. Mr Creosote said nothing. Because he wasn't there.... Although for the purposes of billing, he was very much there...on those dates for those hours...

I have lost the plot of this thread. Maybe the OP can remind everyone what they are seeking to achieve?

Eboatneezer, can you clarify what YOU seek to achieve? You have never had a litigation loan, and, apparently, nor has your former wife. You are proud of the fact that you pay no Child Maintenance despite having "unearned income" you are not a Mum, and you have nothing useful to add... Suggest you go to the F4J fb page, it's full of people like you relishing in the joys of not contributing to their children's lives...

Collaborate I am so sorry for saying, at 8.33 "Collaborate, you have completely got the wrong end of the stick" and appreciate this would cause you significant distress, my profound apologies....

Re what I sought to achieve - finding out what other peoples' experience of these loans is, that's been achieved, finding out how the solicitors justify them, that's also been achieved. Highlighting this practise, and giving warnings, that's been achieved. There is clearly a serious problem from the client side re litigation loans, and a lot of the Solicitors who use them are, largely, turning a tin ear to those issues and being quite defensive about them....
This has lead to a wider discussion about Solicitors, their charging, response to complaints, attitudes to clients and handing of cases.

It is unlikely you can obtain files through DP laws, they are usually exempt. If you pay the bill you get the file, you then have evidence (or not) of the overcharging or and negligence you are trying to prove. That was my point. There is obviously an agenda on here and unsurprisingly i'm not keen on constantly being maligned and misinterpreted to fulfil your agenda. You have retorts for everything any solicitor or barrister says and obviously any advice given you already know or put barriers in place for reasons they won't work so I shall go and waste my time elsewhere.

I haven’t read all comments but the bit about lien - it was my new direct access barrister who needed my whole file from my previous solicitors to prepare for a full two day final hearing in less than 8 weeks.
There were seven files of correspondence - 11 in all including pleadings etc - I had most correspondence - but to print it all off and send it to DAB was not within my capability at the time!

X’s solicitor that I was now having to deal with as LiP didn’t believe me when I was saying that my file had not been sent - I think she thought I was being obstructive - so she wrote to previous solicitor for confirmation and the answer was yes! So bearing in mind my account was about £13k outstanding they held £650k from house sale I’d just paid £5k and I’d already paid c£80k I was still waiting on them to send me info so I could reconcile my account - I don’t often put on here my legal fees because it makes me feel stupid - I question how could I have been duped into paying this much money £93k FFS! And this is not including X’s fees -it’s fucking disgusting - this was kids school fees! This was their uni money! I had no form H’s I had no forecasts - I hadn’t previously questioned my bill because stupidly again I thought solicitors were honest - youve all said on here they have to be r hey lose their job - well my solicitor deserves to lose her job - it’s only her job - l lost my fucking home, my kids lost their fucking home, my MH been shot to pieces - you want to see what else I’m dealing with - check out my other thread under relationships it’s called c&&t!

One of the key things that this thread has highlighted is that we all feel absolutely stupid for allowing these huge legal fees to escalate. I feel the same as Greenberet... But at the outset I was told it would cost around £20k, £50k tops. There is no way I would have instructed the solicitors if they had told me they would get through £100k in 3 months, and come back for another £100k. And because of the loan I was trapped. I don't think we were stupid, everyone has the same experience - a feeling of disassociation, panic, numbness, not being oneself, fear and a desperate need for good advice, and support. And all of us have surfaced months or years after, in less of a blind panic, looked around and said "What the fuck happened!" If it's any consolation, with interest my litigation loan is in excess of £500k.... And I am a woman who wouldn't even have a credit card, have never bought anything HP, have never gambled on the stock market, or taken financial risks. We were all on autopilot during that time, and the Solicitors and loan companies took advantage of that. They are calling me stupid, of course they are, but I know I am not, and I know you are not too....

Obviously there are good points from lots of people on here including the solicitors and lots of different issues.

Some barrister will not have conference without a solicitor present nor do court hearings. In my business law I sometimes try to ensure I am not present at a hearing although it depends on the case and what the client and barrister want. I put people off going to court every week as it is expensive, usually costs double what anyone incl,uding the lawyers necessarily expect and even with a sure fire winner case a witness may do badly on the day or the judge takes a different view so it is a massive lottery exercise at times and always has been very unpredictable in many areas of law; therefore accpeting much less monety than you might get at a hearing can sometimes be better but it's not a precise science.

We negotiated via our solicitors (I paid both solicitors) on our divorce and directlly, reached various verbal agreements and then we got to a point where my husband wanted even more and then I okay that's tipipng point we will have a hearing then and that was when he agreed on our final amount - he got 59% of joint aseets and no obligation to support the children and I got a clean break - did not have to pay him maintenance. Niow that 59% he got is fairly high although lower earners even those working full time like he did sometimes do get 60% + sometimes more. Had we gone to court it was possible he would have got even as low as 39% of joint net assets. So I sitting there with my mental calculator and also thinking of the psychological effects of having ig hanging over me another year and just bit the bullet and agreed his 59%. (He got my life savings, all my shares and a very large chunk of the house equity and I got an obligation to pay 5 sets of school fees, childcare, university costs for children and to house the children (he never has them) and a £1.3m debt.

On a few of the many points raised above if documents prove someone has charged for something that did not happen that is not usual or reasonable. I would never do it. In fact I have often had conversations with clients and barristers about if they want me to the call or not - if I am on the call I charge for it, if not I don't. When my father died his lawyers said they had incurred 70 hours of time on something over 2 years. It was a ridiculous. We paid but it illustrated to me why I invoice every single jmonth, whty i explain on the invoice what work i did in that month and why I try to ensure in most matters clients know in advance what a particular task will cost particularly if they are not used to using solicitors.

From this month there is a new obligation for those solicitors (not me) who do consumer law work of certain kinds to try to give a reasonable estimate of the range of fees particular work may cost but it is very hard to predict with litigation.

I would suggest people print their own files by the way which I do in personal things - each substantive email and document print it out and put in date order as it comes in no matter who much trouble that seems to feel at the time as it gives you an awful lot of power and easy reference to documents and then if you need to copy it you can just send it to the local copyshop to copy the whole thing.

On the litigation loans I just don't have experience of them.

Thankyou Xenia, as ever, for the thoughtful input. You make a good point. I realise now, that as a client I should have been far more on top of my solicitors, questioning everything, double checking everything, refusing to pay for unnecessary or un asked for items on the bill - at the time I was living in fear, had a tagged number to the police, who were on priority call for the children and me, trying to juggle work, the closure of all my bank accounts, the children's fear and trauma, Social Services - the list is absolutely endless... I just did not have the time to police the solicitors in this way, and genuinely believed that no professional worthy of the name would pressure me to take steps which were to the children and my serious detriment.... I mean who would do that to three kids, one disabled and a terrified woman? Who would do that? But they did. That's all. They just did!. And from this thread I have learned that I am far from alone. That is just awful, truly, truly awful. Of course there are angry posts on this thread - it should not be difficult to understand why! When someone like Xenia has had to give over half her assets to her ex husband, and is solely responsible for their care and the costs of their care, and a piece of work like Eboatneezer is bragging about having "unearned income" and not giving any of it to support his children, anger is the only reasonable response. And action...

I certainly would support a much much simpler divorce law even if it ended up being slightly unfair on some people where you could input your debts, assets and various other things on to a state provided on line tool and got a rough estimate of what would be a reasonable settlement in your case or even just a broad X - Y and then at least couples would have a rough idea to negotiate from. Generally if both parties in a negotiation come out of it feeling fed up it tends to mean it's been about right and fair to both sides rasther than one emerging triumphant.

Sometimes in life we can't get perfection or the result we like. I knew someone so utterly obssessed with getting recompense, even proposed to sue every individual board member of HMRC. Took over their life so much. it's that difficult issue of working out how much is at stake, is it worth pursuing, are you likely to win and if you do will the effort, hours and stress of it be worth it.

Then there are people who would much much rather there not be a penny for their spouse or even them than give a penny to the spouse and genuinely would rather litigate their divorce for years because the "victory" over the spouse is more important to them than accepting a reasonable compromise early on.

All very difficult stuff. I quite liked family law at university. It was my only non-business law option in my last year but I did it out of interest as I knew it would be too difficult, emotive and hard to practise in that area. How people divide children must be heart breaking on both sides - we can't split them in two.

Yet again there seems to be a patronising tone coming from the legals against the joe bloggs - or is it male v female?

@Jack65 yes I get that if I pay my bill I get the file under normal circumstances but i Was questioning my bill long before it got to my solicitors terminating their waiver and not all issues had been addressed. I too have instances with dubious charging I was charged twice for the same piece of work first by junior sol and then by my appointed solicitor for checking it!

After the hearing for the house I was called into discuss situation - they knew I was not happy - I noticed junior person note taking - I asked for a copy of what was being written down. I was charged for this - firstly ufor the draft copy to be drafted then to be checked by appointed sol and then for the amendments - is this normal practise?

I suffer with depression which means under stress under pressure I tire easily - this has been ongoing for 4 years now - during the process I was not always able to keep on top of things but why did I need to be - I had instructed solicitors purely for this reason - i have emails saying if you do not keep on top of this I am sunk - I was told don’t worry - then something else happened that would raise my doubts and I would ge
fobbed off again - I was told i was highly suspicious - no I was bloody right!

I find it pretty sad that the legals on here ( not Xenia) do not get where we are coming from and continue to undermine us!

I said before you should be ashamed of yourselves - not one of you has apologised for your profession - not one of you seems to empathiswith what we have been through - all you do is keep defending and then abuse and then flounce off! Maybe if you stuck around you could actually learn something.

@Highlandheath you have been through hell and have the courage and strength to keep going with this - you will get your Justice - will those on this thread congratulate you I wonder?

No one is trying to undermine you. We don't know you.

But we do know you've come on here with vague allegations, calling the legal profession crooks. Some of the allegations have been laced with vitriol, and some of the claims disjointed, irrational and outlandish.

There are routes you can go down to get grievances investigated properly. Choosing to come on here and berate established professional posters (who only come on here to try and offer free guidance to people needing it) is not one of them. Are you so surprised you've got people's backs up?

Yes, you are charged for the time spent. So I keep a rough note only I can realy understand that is just for my refernce made at the time in most cases of my calls - eg I ad a call this afternoon. If a client wanted a written note that would take a hute log of extra time and like everyone else in the UK I don't work for nothing so that would be more time and then more charge.

I think everyone on here just about is female, lawyers and otherwise so there won't be male/female differences.

I am sorry greenb has depressino. It must be awful. My family are mostly psychiatrists not lawyers so the whole background of my child hood and conversations at meals etc was about those conditions and like most people including lawyers I am very sympathetic to them.