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Help please - friend cannot get these lodgers out of his home - do they have a tenancy?

40 replies

newname100 · 14/11/2018 20:26

Please can anyone with housing knowledge advise as my friend is basically being pushed out of his own home.

My friend decided to rent rooms out in his house to two individual guys - one bedroom each and use of kitchen etc. He thought they were lodgers but in the worst case scenario licensees who he could ask to leave on a month’s notice. They paid a deposit. All was fine for 6 months. My friend then went overseas for 9 months to look after a sick parent. He left the key with relatives, so they could keep an eye on the property and check on his stuff as he left most of his belongings behind and had his own locked bedroom there.

This is when things started to go wrong. The lodgers continued to pay rent but refused to let his relatives in to look at the property and would not allow estate agents round to value the property when my friend decided to put it on the market, so he was unable to sell it. They also took it upon themselves to get the electricity and gas account put into their own names without permission.

My friend is now back and wants them out of his house. He has tried to obtain advice on the position, but most helplines are there to protect tenants from rogue landlords and not the other way around. He is now being forced to live in his own house with people he does not want there, and they can be quite aggressive towards him.

He has spoken to the local council who told him there is nothing he can do about this as he was out of the country for some time. He also spoke to a solicitor who is supposed to specialise in tenancy law but what he has been told sounds a bit off to me. He was told that because they have been in the property for over a year and he was out of the country for more than 6 months the licence automatically becomes a tenancy. He was told he needs to serve a section 21 notice. I thought this was only used in the case of assured shorthold tenancies which is not the case here and I did not think it was possible for an arrangement to morph into an ast. It may be key to this discussion as to whether they had exclusive possession of the house. To begin with he lived there with them, then when he went abroad they still never had full possession of the whole property (he always had a bedroom there) and it was intended that his relatives could pop in to see if everything was ok and to stay in his room if they wanted but the lodgers always refused them entry. Surely the lodgers should not be able to argue that they had exclusive possession of a property where they stopped others gaining authorised entry or is it the fact that he was out of the country that gives the lodgers exclusive possession (although as I said above he still had his own locked room). He has also been told he now needs to go to the expense of getting several things associated with a tenancy such as a rented property licence from his borough in order to let the property (and until then this arrangement that he does not want to even exist puts him at risk of a £30,000 fine for illegal letting) and things such as gas safety certificates.

Does any of this sound right? Has anyone got any advice on this or could they perhaps point me in the direction of a help line that might help? The citizens advice bureau said they cannot help him as they are there for tenants and not landlords (odd as I would have thought he was still a "citizen") and Shelter said the same thing. There must be a way for him to get these men out of his home and who are basically holding him to ransom. Thanks.

OP posts:
UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea · 15/11/2018 06:26

Is he in England? I've never heard of needing a license to let a house.

Just serve them with a section 21. It's not hard. He's not going to get into any trouble over anything.

He's been naive but it's all fixable.

newname100 · 15/11/2018 08:33

Yes England, Many areas of england now have licences that you need from the local council before being able to let a property - property has to fit certain criteria and they then tell you how many people it can be let to - for example London Borough of Newham - think the licence is about £600 (and that is if you get one). If you do not get it you cannot legally let the property.

The section 21 will not work if he does not have supporting paperwork. :(

OP posts:
NoSquirrels · 15/11/2018 08:41

Instead of spending lots of money on lawyers etc, can he offer a substantial-ish sum to pay them off? e.g. on a sliding scale - if you’re out in 1 week I’ll give you £XXX, if you out in 2 weeks I’ll give you £XX, etc.

Make it worth their while to go..,

prh47bridge · 15/11/2018 09:27

The advice from the solicitor is correct. When he moved out of the country for an extended period it became an assured shorthold tenancy. The fact that they did not have access to the whole building is irrelevant. What matters is that your friend was not living there. So he needs to sort out the paperwork so that he can issue a section 21 notice.

thereallochnessmonster · 15/11/2018 09:29

Jesus, that's all really scary. The cheek of the tenants!! Hope your friend gets it sorted out. Sounds like he should have taken legal advice before he left the country...

newname100 · 15/11/2018 10:10

To be fair I think he only expected to be way for a few weeks - he did not realise how ill his dad was.

But surely it cannot be that the minute a landlord leaves the house an ast is formed - what if someone goes on holiday for a fortnight?

He has already offered them money etc to leave - he can no longer afford the mortgage on the house and needs to sell but when he was away they would not let his friends or any estate agents in to value etc. He has offered to give them 2 months rent cost - social housing wont help as they will be making themselves deliberately homeless and they literally refuse to leave his property. They will not leave. He is scared living in his own home.

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 15/11/2018 10:35

It doesn't become an AST the minute the landlord leaves the house. It becomes an AST when the landlord stops living there. If the landlord goes on holiday they still live in the house. If the landlord moves overseas for 9 months it is much harder to argue that they still live in the house, even if they retain a room in the house for their own use.

UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea · 15/11/2018 11:02

The section 21 will work. He may face consequences with the council but that's separate to the S21. To be honest I really think the council would be sympathetic. He's a very small fish in the regulation of rental housing. Large fines and/or other action will be saved for serious rogue landlords with unsafe properties.

To mitigate I'd recommend getting a gas safety certificate, and EPC and if he hasn't already, protect their deposits and give them the appropriate paperwork.

Really, he is thinking of the worst case scenario. He just needs to get on with it.

UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea · 15/11/2018 11:03

And if he evicts them they have a better chance of getting help with housing from the council.

He's been very, very naive but now he just need to man up and serve them a section 21.

NoSquirrels · 15/11/2018 11:40

Then he needs to do the Section 21 and the accompanying stuff. They have the choice - he can spend his money on the Section 21 etc or he can spend it on them by paying them off.

OzzyMadBat · 15/11/2018 17:42

Section 21 but be prepared for the fact they will still not go until court evicts and he may have loss of rent at any point up to then. Shelter will tell them to literally stay put until bailiff at door. Very sorry your friend is in that situation. He also needs to stay put so that he can assess any malicious damage they do but it's not ideal. On top of that he needs to make sure he put their deposit into the proper deposit scheme as they can legally reject the section 21 if he didn't as well as claiming back 3x the deposit iirc if it was not protected.

Jack65 · 16/11/2018 01:49

UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea any s21 will be invalid and the court will dismiss the proceedings because he has not served epc, put deposit in a scheme, given a gas safety certificate or served a how to rent booklet. This cannot be remedied after the fact. The only option is a s8 ground 1. Please check your facts.

Jack65 · 16/11/2018 01:53

OzzyMadBat do please check your facts. You cannot put a deposit into a deposit scheme after 30 days within the commencement of the tenancy without penalty. The penalty is not being able to serve a s21. The only option in circumstances when this has not been done is to return the deposit to the tenant. There is also the posibility of damages up to 3x the value of the deposit.

Jack65 · 16/11/2018 01:56

of 30 days not within. Laments no edit button . . ..

MidniteScribbler · 17/11/2018 00:49

If they now have a tenancy over the whole home, then could he be breaching the law by actually staying in the house?

Powerless · 17/11/2018 01:35

I'd be tempted to remove their stuff and change the locks. The financial repercussions would seemingly be less?!

Shriek · 17/11/2018 01:50

What bastards! FFS. The bloke leaves because of seriously ill relative, ii really wonder how far they would get in court with this. 'They', are two separate individuals.
Who fricking dare they block another coming in, how did they do that exactly? Did they threaten them to make them leave the property cos if so you can get an occupation order on your own property! If they are being aggressive and so on, kick them out with an occupation order and then the police will arrest them if they try to get back in.

prh47bridge · 17/11/2018 08:49

If they now have a tenancy over the whole home

No they don't. Their tenancy has become an AST but it doesn't cover the whole house.

kick them out with an occupation order

He cannot use an occupation order to kick out the tenants. An occupation order is a family law matter.

Collaborate · 17/11/2018 08:53

He can force entry to the hose, but must not do so if there is someone in there who does not want him to do that. To do so would constitute an offence under the 1977 Crime Act. He must not interfere with their tenancy rights unless he has a court order.

lilraven · 17/11/2018 09:00

I'd have 4 of my friends move in as well and take over the whole living room bathroom kitchen and generally make their lives hell.

Actually I wouldn't. Rightly or wrongly I would just pack up their shit and change the locks. Let them take YOU to court if they fancy their chances.

(I'm not advising you to do these things of course as they are probably the totally wrong thing to do. But I would do it Smile)

permana · 17/11/2018 09:19

Can he put the house/flat up for Sale?

Jack65 · 17/11/2018 10:22

The last reported illegal eviction case cost the landlord over 20k in damages.

Shriek · 17/11/2018 13:04

But its landlords home!???
He cannot be 'forcing', surely as its his home he has right of entry?

AnnieOH1 · 17/11/2018 13:16

Haven't you already received a slew of responses about this on Reddit? The advice hasn't changed.

RippleEffects · 17/11/2018 13:21

Sometimes talking is the best way forwards. He wants them out, he is going to get them out. It's going to cost time, effort and money. The tenants need somewhere to live, they liked having a whole house at room rates, they are going to need a reference and deposit to get another property.

If he sits down and works out the likely costs it quickly runs into a few thousand and months of his life. If he compares that with cost to pay them off it may be tempting. I don't know where you are in the country or rent being paid/ cost to rent another property but maybe he could look at what would be a tempting offer to the tenants get them out. I'd have thought two weeks to find somewhere and around £1500 would be the sort of amount to good to resist.