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Legal matters

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Original poster

Is anyone here involved in criminal law?

67 replies

Binglebong · 14/10/2018 16:44

I'd like to know why someone wasn't prosecuted and to get the CPS to rethink it. I have no idea where to start. Thanks.

OP posts:

Bluntness100 · 14/10/2018 21:51

Agree, I cannot see any illegality here and the person involved is happy with what was their decision, a decision they made, perfectly legally.

nellly · 14/10/2018 22:42

But that law you keep quoting relates to fgm specifically, I'm not sure this falls under this remit at all. It was a medical procedure that at the time was legal in that country.

I'm not saying it's right, I don't think it is. But your crackers if you think this is some sort of "easy win" for the cps and you just need to flag it to the right person.

I'm a lawyer, albeit not criminal and I really don't think this was a crime

Original poster

Binglebong · 14/10/2018 22:45

Which is why I am trying to find out if there was any illegal activity and if so why they weren't prosecuted. Equally if they are acting within the law I think it would be good to know do that talk of her breaking the law can be shut down, don't you agree?

So back to my original question: can anyone, who knows the relevant proceedures, please tell me how I can find out if there was ever an investigation and if so why it was not prosecuted?

OP posts:

nellly · 14/10/2018 22:46

It doesn't matter that there isn't a male equivalent because what happened there wouldn't fall under the legal definition to mutilate. So even if it had been ftm surgery carried out abroad the law wouldn't recognise a medical procedure that is legally committed in that country "to mutilate".

Look I'm all for gender critical and looking at these issues but honestly trying to make arguments like this just weaken the point surely? Trying to force something into a criminal box to prosecute someone? It make us look a bit daft when there are plenty of real arguments and points to be made

nellly · 14/10/2018 22:48

Cross posted with your reply. To the best of my knowledge neither police nor cps would release information about an individual family.

You could try a foi request vaguely worded so as not to identify individuals

Original poster

Binglebong · 14/10/2018 22:50

And yes, a case where the defendant has given talks that were recorded explaining how she did something that may or may not be illegal and needs no further investigation to find evidence would be considered an easy win. There is no morality element involved - the judge would instruct the jury that if there is evidence an illegal act was commuted then must find the defendant guilty and if there is reasonable doubt then they must find them not guilty. There is no lack of evidence confirming the act was commuted, who by and for what purpose.

OP posts:

prh47bridge · 14/10/2018 23:09

a case where the defendant has given talks that were recorded explaining how she did something that may or may not be illegal and needs no further investigation to find evidence would be considered an easy win

If it is not illegal (and I can't see any illegality in her actions) it is not an easy win.

Unless the CPS or police choose to make a statement there is no way you can find out whether there was an investigation.

Thenewdoctor · 15/10/2018 03:28

It wasn’t illegal. I explained why. The law relates to females. At the time the person left her to go to Thailand they were male and at the time it was legal in Thailand to have surgery age 16.

Bluntness100 · 15/10/2018 07:26

Agree it's clearly not illegal. Jeez it's even a legal procedure in this country, it's just the age difference between here and Thailand, here you can consent at 18. In addition even in the U.K. you can get prescribed hormones from puberty onwards.

You can possibly compare it to fgm, which is not legal or here or nearly all countries. Irrelevant of age.

Op, honestly, this is pointless and a bit daft. The man was able to consent at 16 in Thailand legally. He can get drugs in the uk. He could have the surgery here at 18, he could have it there at 16. He is perfectly happy with his decision.

You not approving doesn't change the legalities of it.

Thenewdoctor · 15/10/2018 07:31

*Section 2 Offence of assisting a girl to mutilate her own genitalia

A person is guilty of an offence if he aids, abets, counsels or procures a girl to excise, infibulate or otherwise mutilate the whole or any part of her own labia majora, labia minora or clitoris.

Section 3 Offence of assisting a non-UK person to mutilate overseas a girl's genitaliaA person is guilty of an offence if he aids, abets, counsels or procures a person who is not a United Kingdom national or a United Kingdom resident to do a relevant act of female genital mutilation outside the United Kingdom.An act is a relevant act of female genital mutilation ifit is done in relation to a United Kingdom national or a United Kingdom resident, andit would, if done by such a person, constitute an offence under section 1But no offence is committed if the relevant act of female genital mutilationis a surgical operation falling within section 1(2)(a) or (b), andis performed by a person who, in relation to such an operation, is an approved person or exercises functions corresponding to those of an approved person*

Section 2 - he was boy when he left and when he returned as he didn’t have a grc. He didn’t have labia or clitoris when he left.

It was legal in Thailand at the time at which they had it done.

There is no case to answer.

Thenewdoctor · 15/10/2018 07:33

Also if you go down that route, are you planning to look to charge transmen who had surgery to fashion a penis?

No idea if that has ever been done to a 16 year old. But that would be closer to FGM than this has been.

Bluntness100 · 15/10/2018 07:49

The key difference, or one of them, between gender reassignment surgery and fgm, is gender reassignment surgery is perfectly legal in the U.K. the only difference between here and Thailand at that time was at what age it was legal. Ie 16 v 18. As such, it's simply not comparable in law.

As said, the op can argue the morality of it, not the legality, but I struggle to see how she can argue the morality efficiently as she has spoken to neither individual and has not walked a mile in either shoes.

Whichever way you look at it, it won't have been an easy decision for either party, and I really think it's unfair for there to be ridiculous threads like this. It helps no one as it clearly wasn't illegal and the individual concerned is apparently happy with their decision eight years later.

AnchorDownDeepBreath · 15/10/2018 07:52

Section 2 - he was boy when he left and when he returned as he didn’t have a grc. He didn’t have labia or clitoris when he left.

It was legal in Thailand at the time at which they had it done.

There is no case to answer.*

This is the legal position; and the reason that there was no prosecution. There is no crime to prosecute.

Thenewdoctor · 15/10/2018 07:52

I’m not commenting on the morality. I’m looking at it from a legal standpoint only.

Thenewdoctor · 15/10/2018 07:58

And your talk of “it would be an easy win” and “talk of her breaking the law can be shut down” and “may or may not be illegal”. I mean actually what is your thinking because it seems unclear?

She didn’t break the law so she can chat about it all she likes. And even if she has, there’s a standard that a prosecution has to reach - it has to be in the public interest. Even if it was illegal it was a good while ago, the person who was operated on consented and is happy with the result as far as we know, so I’d doubt that standard would be reached.

But to be clear, again, there is no case to answer. It was not illegal at the time and she is breaking no law by talking about it.

Farahilda · 15/10/2018 08:02

FGM is illegal at all ages. Sex change surgery is not illegal

The question here is whether it is permissible to allow a 16year old to travel to a different country to do something that is legal in destination country but for which they are underage in their own.

Marrying of English 16 yos in Scotland has a long precedent. Should women unable to access legal abortion be criminalised if they secure one in England? (OK, no age issue there, but the idea of ravelling tomdo something legal at destination still applies) What about visiting a cannabis cafe in the Netherlands? Or driving under-17 in a country where the age is 16?

If you want gender reassignment surgery to be included as FGM, that needs separate campaigning (and looking at the wording of current act, it would apply to all age groups). You might not find that there is much support for such a change in the law. But if it did come about, it would not apply to this case, as it happened before any hanged in the law.

Collaborate · 15/10/2018 11:21

You'll struggle to get any self-respecting lawyer join in with your clear trans-bashing agenda, OP. Focus on your own life instead of trying to ruin others'.

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