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Original poster

Is anyone here involved in criminal law?

67 replies

Binglebong · 14/10/2018 16:44

I'd like to know why someone wasn't prosecuted and to get the CPS to rethink it. I have no idea where to start. Thanks.

OP posts:
Namechangeforthiscancershit · 14/10/2018 18:32

I think in this case the big factor (aside from worrying about appearing transphobic obviously) is that the victim hasn’t complained.

HeronLanyon · 14/10/2018 18:37

Ok. Clearly I don’t know who or what this thread is alluding to. If there is no evidence (cos no victim has come forward and police themselves did not/cannot witness) then there is your answer !

Bluntness100 · 14/10/2018 18:46

A pp said it's susie green, the head of mermaids, I'm not sure but I suspect the op is alluding to her sons sexual reassignment surgery, which took place in Thailand when he was sixteen, eight years ago. At the time I don't think it was illegal in Thailand for 16 year olds but it was in the U.K, hence I guess why it wasn't done here.

As said, I only think this is what she's referring to based on a pps comment, but I am not sure. Shortly after his surgery the legal age in Thailand was moved to eighteen.

HeronLanyon · 14/10/2018 18:49

Ta bluntness . .

Bluntness100 · 14/10/2018 18:52

If it is , and I'm not sure it is, as I don't think any law has been broken in that case. The surgery took place In Thailand where it was legal. Just like I guess an Irish lady having a termination in England.

The law is not the operation cannot be carried out on british people any where in the world. The law is simply it can't be done in the uk. As such, I dunno but I think it was perfectly legal.

So either this is about something else, or there is some confusion with the op. 🤷‍♀️

HeronLanyon · 14/10/2018 18:56

Indeed - if, that is, it’s all about that!

Bluntness100 · 14/10/2018 18:59

Yeah, I've genuinely no idea and can't see why it would be about that.

Namechangeforthiscancershit · 14/10/2018 18:59

People compare it to taking girls out of the UK for FGM in countries where it’s legal. Supposedly she also obtained drugs in the UK that are illegal here, or illegal to get in the way she did.

There is apparently a lot of evidence but I haven’t looked at it myself.

Original poster
Binglebong · 14/10/2018 19:20

Yeah, ok my subtlety needs work. It is Susie Green.

There is plenty of evidence that she did it - she has done filmed talks saying so. So that's point one.

As to if it is in the public interest the fact she is telling people how to circumvent UK laws (mainly transition drugs) I would have thought it would be relevant for the CPS public interest criteria.

Often victims of domestic violence (or FGM which I think this would come under) refuse to make a complaint or be a witness, either because they are scared or they think the action was justified. They are often prosecuted nonetheless. Well not as often as they should be but it is possible.

There are arguments that prosecution would give her a sympathy angle. I think that it would be better to give exposure to the bad practises her charity advised and show what surgery really means and also the side effects, known and unknown, of the drugs she advised getting.

OP posts:
Original poster
Binglebong · 14/10/2018 19:21

PenninePain please share about the bath and wacky baccy!

OP posts:
Thenewdoctor · 14/10/2018 19:23

At the time, was it illegal to take a 16 year old to Thailand for this surgery?

Bluntness100 · 14/10/2018 19:28

I don't think it is illegal to take a 16 year old to Thailand. Whilst there, at the time, they themselves could consent. It's two different actions.

Can't comment on the drugs.

RepealtheGRA · 14/10/2018 19:31

Are there any answers here from people who actually work in criminal law? Confused

AnchorDownDeepBreath · 14/10/2018 19:35

I'm not entirely sure that the CPS would have jurisdiction here. If it was legal to take her child to Thailand at that time; and then legal for him to consent to the surgery whilst there, there isn't really a crime that the CPS could prosecute.

(NB I haven't heard of her before; or any of this, so if she directly contradicts this freely then it may be different IF jurisdiction can be established)

Original poster
Binglebong · 14/10/2018 19:56

There are definitely laws against taking a woman or girl abroad for fgm (or assisting them if they intend it). I can't find a male equivalent but it might count under previous bodily harm? The laws for fgm came in in 2004 so could be covered ( ironically Jazz getting a GRC certificate means Jazz is now female so was a girl when this was done - could it now be fgm?).

Searching for castration seems to just bring up should paedophiles be chemically castrated yes so not very helpful!

OP posts:
Original poster
Binglebong · 14/10/2018 19:59

This is the relevant fgm bit, the question seems to be is there a male equivalent?

Section 2 Offence of assisting a girl to mutilate her own genitalia

A person is guilty of an offence if he aids, abets, counsels or procures a girl to excise, infibulate or otherwise mutilate the whole or any part of her own labia majora, labia minora or clitoris.

Section 3 Offence of assisting a non-UK person to mutilate overseas a girl's genitaliaA person is guilty of an offence if he aids, abets, counsels or procures a person who is not a United Kingdom national or a United Kingdom resident to do a relevant act of female genital mutilation outside the United Kingdom.An act is a relevant act of female genital mutilation ifit is done in relation to a United Kingdom national or a United Kingdom resident, andit would, if done by such a person, constitute an offence under section 1But no offence is committed if the relevant act of female genital mutilationis a surgical operation falling within section 1(2)(a) or (b), andis performed by a person who, in relation to such an operation, is an approved person or exercises functions corresponding to those of an approved person

OP posts:
Thenewdoctor · 14/10/2018 20:00

But the child got the grc after the surgery so at the time of leaving the Uk to go for the surgery they were legally male?

Original poster
Binglebong · 14/10/2018 20:01

Also whether it is neccesary for mental health.

OP posts:
Original poster
Binglebong · 14/10/2018 20:02

Yes, you cant get the grc until you ate 18. The child was 16 at the time.

OP posts:
RainbowsArePretty · 14/10/2018 20:15

I'm not advocating what she did but I suppose the COS could argue they don't prosecute many allegations/crimes.

Original poster
Binglebong · 14/10/2018 20:23

It should be a relatively easy win - there is no lack of evidence. Just working out the right charge. I suspect it was never actually raised with CPS.

OP posts:
Bluntness100 · 14/10/2018 21:16

As he was 16 and personally consented, and he has not reversed that decision or expressed any feeling of dismay about it, then I can't see the criminality here.

You could argue the morals possibly. But in terms of criminal behaviour the son would have to say he was coerced, this was against his will. He isn't saying that, in fact rhe opposite, so I cannot see how there will be a criminal case to answer to.

I also feel it's unfair on him and the family to speculate in this way. They all feel they made the right decision for the person involved. That's what's important.

As said, you can argue rhe morals of it. You can argue the morals of encouraging others if indeed that's what's occurring, but arguing the mother has a criminal case to answer to I don't think is right of acceptable

Bluntness100 · 14/10/2018 21:18

Yes, you cant get the grc until you ate 18. The child was 16 at the time

That's incomplete.

It should read.

Yes, you cant get the grc in the U.K. until you ate 18. The child was 16 at the time and had it done in Thailand where it was legal for 16 year olds at the time.

Original poster
Binglebong · 14/10/2018 21:25

A person is guilty of an offence if he aids, abets, counsels or procures a girl to excise, infibulate or otherwise mutilate the whole or any part of her own labia majora, labia minora or clitori

This is the relevant bit. Even though he consented it can still be a crime.

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 14/10/2018 21:31

It should be a relatively easy win

How? What is the crime? You haven't identified one yet and I can't immediately think of any laws that have been broken. Her child appears to have consented to the process and is happy with the outcome. You may not approve but that doesn't make it a crime. And, even if there is a crime, if the "victim" does not complain it will be almost impossible to prosecute.

You've quoted the Female Genital Mutilation Act. There is no male equivalent. And sex change operations are permitted. It is true that the operation would not have been carried out on a 16-year old in the UK but that doesn't make it illegal to take them abroad for surgery.