Mother with dementia and no license had RTA

[ImaginaryCat]

The situation is that my mother has dementia, the DVLA cancelled her licence and then her insurance, tax and MOT all expired. But she continued to drive and in December had a minor collision.
The police have told me today that they won't be prosecuting her for dangerous driving and leaving the scene, as her mental health makes that a pointless exercise. They've given me the details of the 3rd party and passed my details to that person. They've told me the other car has a dented bumper. They now consider the case closed and are leaving me to resolve the claim privately.
But I don't know what to do for the best. I'm worried that if I deal with the 3rd party directly I open my mother up to the risk of being ripped off if this person claims a whole load of extra damage.
Shouldn't the other insurance company have settled the person's claim and then they contact me to try to get my mother to pay them back? Anyone know how it normally works when there's an uninsured driver in a collision?

I get it op
My grandma had dementia and we were lucky she had never driven
to the pp who said she'd have agreed in her periods of lucidity - it really doesn't work like that. In those periods the person is trying to rationalise their behaviour and convince them self there's nothing wrong. We couldn't even get my grandma ro agree to see a doctor for this reason, meaning she was diagnosed and treated far too late.

I did read the thread. I've had to deal with two relatives in a similar situation. Ultimately the car has to go. How would the op feel if she had killed a child? There comes a time when common sense has to over rule all other options. Surely the OP could have spoken to the garage, maybe even got them to hold on to the car for a while. Legally it's a muddy water if you take the car, morally I couldn't live with myself if anything happened. I think of it like you would take an axe off a 5yo if they were playing with it. A car can be a murder weapon too.

I know it's tough OP, I've been there. Sending you best wishes and the strength to cope with the situation.

OP. What a horrible situation. I hope you have some RL support in all of this. There's also a thread on MN to support people who are looking after a parent if that might be helpful. It sounds like you're doing everything you can in a hideous situation.

This is going to become an increasing problem with our aging population and really does need some robust way of managing it. As the OP says she can't stop her mother from driving without committing a crime herself which is a ridiculous situation. And what happens to people in this situation who don't have relatives involved? There needs to be a system whereby if your license is suspended due to dementia your car is also seized. Expecting people with memory problems to remember that they're banned from driving is just madness.

A garage is not going to collude in saying there is something wrong with a car when there isn't, NoraDora. Why would they get involved with a stranger who contacts them and asks them to lie about the fact that they've taken a battery out of their relative's car?

OP - it looks like you got the answer you needed re what to do with the claim. Just wanted to offer my sympathy about how difficult it is to deal with a driver with dementia. We have evenly been through a very similar situation with my FIL but fortunately managed to persuade him to give up his car (after a lot of coaxing) before he hit another car or person (lots of damage to s own car with bumps and scrapes). It is very difficult situation. Please ignore the self righteous mob - they have no idea.

op it's so hard dealing with dementia- people who are giving you a hard time clearly have no idea of the legal loopholes.

Luckily mil never learnt to drive so that was one less obstacle to overcome. Unfortunately my nan did & it was a nightmare to get her to stop driving - thankfully her car was hit by someone while parked & was written off.

Dementia is fucking hard and 90% of the time you feel like your getting it wrong without people on the internet telling you what you should have done three months ago. If you'd known this would have happened you'd have stopped it. By nature of the disease one day a lucid choice the next there's been more deterioration and a stupid decision is made.

I've nothing legal I can add (could the local garage your mum used offer a local body shop to repair it?) without the cost of insurance company add ons?

Meanwhile here's some more

nightmare OP.

Can't help thinking lots of posters on here have very simple lives.

I've fucking been there and taken the keys off relatives who are no long safe to drive. I'm not speaking from a position of ignorance.

There are garages who will lie, our local one did while the car was parked at my parents for long enough for the relative to forget about driving. It can be done. You have to be creative if needed. Leaving a car with someone with dementia should not be allowed.

Yes it's shit, yes you make wrong decisions, yes every day gets harder, no I didn't want to clean up my grandad, no I didn't want to see him starving to death because his body had forgotten how to process food properly. But you know what, this all happened.

Dementia is a horrendous disease and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

Please don't accuse me of living a simple life, I've been there (twice) and managed to do the right thing.

Would expect you to have a little more empathy really. As you know, it's not easy and none of us know enough about other people's lives to judge. Particularly when someone has come here for advice.

Been there, done that OP.
Trying to stop someone driving who thinks they're fine is incredibly difficult.
You have my sympathies.

If it were as easy as some think, you would have prevented this

Legally I don't know but morally I would contact the other party and explain the insurance has expired without mentioning dementia and ask them to get a quote and then pay it.
If they escalate costs cut contact and ignore.
P
My Mum has dementia and my sister and I removed the keys/disabled the car around three years ago Yes Mum was furious, no she hasn't forgiven us and strangely given her memory difficulties has never forgotten

Really feel for you op. Pleased you have had some sensible advice re the way to resolve the claim.

My MIL will be 90 this year. Mentally she is fully there but for the last 5 years i have been very uncomfortable with her driving..i simply didnt feel she had the quick enough responses yo do emergency stops etc

There is nothing yoi can do there legally. It is so hard. In pur case with someone who is memtally sound it is even harder
Last year mil tpok a fall and has sadly gone downhill since then. She hasnt driven since and car now loves with dh and I (for when our teens get thwir driving licence) however up until MIL said no more. Therr was just nothing we could do. Legally she was fit to drive as she had good enough eyesight and no dementia.

Very difficult I cant imagine how much harder that woild be with a person who is in stagrs of dementia.

Broken record to the other party that you don't have PoA, your mother is too mentally unwell to talk to them directly, and they need to go through their insurance.

for you OP - nightmare situation all round.

What's done is done and the car has now gone. Fortunately only a dented bumper, and the claim can go through the other drivers insurance.

I am staggered that the law seems to prevent a lethal weapon being removed from someone no longer competent to use it!

It is very difficult. We had the same situation with a relative. They thought they were fit to drive. I reported them to the dvla in the end but by the time the investigations were completed, doctor etc written to, my relative had died.

A huge thank you to those of you who've given some useful advice to my question.
Given that I may not be able to access my mother's assets for many months anyway while the court of protection application goes through, I'm going to advise the 3rd party to go through her insurance, and explain that they will then recoup the costs (if deemed appropriate) via the MIB.

Hopefully the people who piled in blaming me for everything have taken the time to read the thread and now have a little more understanding of the challenges facing those of us managing the dementia minefield. It's all fine shouting about 'common sense', but that doesn't always mean it's legal.

Yes the system's shit. As someone suggested upthread it would make sense for the DVLA to follow up on cancelled licences to ensure that person stops driving. There are many elderly people without even a relative looking out for them.

Feel free to write to your MP to suggest better solutions. I'm off to keep fighting the fires and trying to do my best by everyone else.

Why is ImaginaryCat being given a hard time here? To remove the keys would be theft and she cannot commit a crime to prevent her mother from driving without a licence. Dementia is a very difficult disease and ImaginaryCat's mother will have periods of lucidity and periods of confusion. She won't have insight into the danger she causes and she won't understand why she can't drive. Because she is so young, she won't look like she has dementia - she may just seem a bit stressed and forgetful.

Legally, above posters are correct. The MIB is there for this situation. I'm sorry you're trying to deal with it.

She might have legal cover through another insurance policy. House insurance, for example. If you know who she's with candy you ring them and check?

There comes a time when common sense has to over rule all other options

Thins is, Nora, you can't argue that in a courtroom. You say you have had to prevent others from driving when it's unsafe for them to do so. If the actions you took were not actually legal, it really doesn't matter that they were 'common sense' actions taken to protect others.

There is a reason for the complexity of the legal situation around adults whose capacity is diminishing/ gone, a reason for the existence of the Mental Capacity Act and Court of Protection and Best Interests processes etc. You can't just decide you know best and dictate what does and does not happen without following the proper processes. Far too many vulnerable adults who lack capacity have had their rights infringed by people who have decided they can take over. Whilst you may be entirely well meaning and wanting only to act in someone's best interests, others may not be: surely you can see why safeguarding all vulnerable adults means there have to be proper procedures in place?

OP, for you

It's not your fault op.

The MIB has an excess of £300 so the other driver would have to pay this. I'm not sure if the MIB would even take the claim on as it covers 'negligent uninsured drivers' and I don't know whether they would deem your DM as negligent due to her dementia.

Do you know whether the other person has had repairs carried out yet? I would maybe try to find this out first as it does seem unfair on them that they would have to either pay their own excess, MIB excess or pay full cost of repairs themselves.

I understand it's not your responsibility but I think if it was me, I would contact the other person and depending on the cost, etc, I may look to pay and get the money back from DM.

Also, what were the circumstances of the accident?

ImagineryCat we've been through the giving up driving process with DF recently. In his case it was his body not his mind that was letting him down, we looked into how we could legally stop him if it came to it and the short answer was neither we nor his doctor could, the police could ask but not make him. As it was he made the decision himself and the car has gone, I appreciate it wasn't that simple for you.
The third party needs to go through their insurers who could try and recoup the money from your DM by invoice or small claims court. As she no longer has the ability to admit liability it gets very tricky. The Court of Protection would probably be asked to deal with this. I'm sorry your family are facing such a difficult time, 62 is no age.

Just coming on, late to the party to say my dad (who died in January) had dementia and was driving dangerously. I tried on multiple occasions to discuss this, encourage him not to drive/ set up a taxi account etc. He would deny there was a problem, shout, intimidate etc. The very devilish thing about dementia is the more people loose capacity the more they think.everything is tickety boo. OP is doing her best in a very difficult situation and criticism will not provide any solutions.

Just to clarify. The MIB will not reimburse an insurers outlay because they are funded by a levy on insurers. The other person involved has the option of going through their insurers, going to the mib directly or asking your mum to pay for repairs.
If i was in your position i think i would ask the other person for an estimate first and then decide what to do. In theory if either the mib or the insurers settle they will come to your mum for the money anyway

I haven't got anything to add to the thread other than giving you a gentle squeeze, OP. I hear ya!