Mother with dementia and no license had RTA

[ImaginaryCat]

The situation is that my mother has dementia, the DVLA cancelled her licence and then her insurance, tax and MOT all expired. But she continued to drive and in December had a minor collision.
The police have told me today that they won't be prosecuting her for dangerous driving and leaving the scene, as her mental health makes that a pointless exercise. They've given me the details of the 3rd party and passed my details to that person. They've told me the other car has a dented bumper. They now consider the case closed and are leaving me to resolve the claim privately.
But I don't know what to do for the best. I'm worried that if I deal with the 3rd party directly I open my mother up to the risk of being ripped off if this person claims a whole load of extra damage.
Shouldn't the other insurance company have settled the person's claim and then they contact me to try to get my mother to pay them back? Anyone know how it normally works when there's an uninsured driver in a collision?

Yes hoddtastic, obviously I was doing a dance for fucking joy every time I knew she'd got behind the wheel.

But do feel free to tell me what LEGAL action you would have taken in my situation.

you take the keys and the car. just that, and when/if police / people come to ask why you've removed the car and taken the keys you explain she's banned and about to drive illegally so you've prevented that happening.

Northern car's gone now. But she lives right next door to a garage sadly, so any attempt to sabotage the car would have been fixed quite quickly (and yes I even asked the garage not to fix her car but it was a bit unfair putting them in that position)

Hodd do me a favour, ask a lawyer what would happen if my mother pressed charges against me for forcibly entering her flat and stealing her car keys, and the police had no evidence she was driving. Because I did exactly that before making my decisions.

OP just popping in to say that while I have no experience of your situation I have had experience of how frustrating the law is and how many loopholes there are. So ignore the negative comments, you are doing a fantastic job with your mum

Watch out with trying to settle a claim like this directly. Basically, the other driver knows you are completely liable so may well start putting up cost and adding a whiplash claim etc, etc, and you could end up paying ££££. You are much better to get insurers to do it.

Yep, the other party needs to go through their insurer who will try and recover from the Motor Insurers Bureau. The MIB will then decide whether they wish to seek an indemnity for any liability from your mother personally. Do not engage directly with the other driver, it is for their insurer to handle. What a nightmare for you and shame on all the "isn't hindsight a wonderful thing" posters with all their unwanted advice about what you should have done.

Velvetspoon is right, up to the point of the MIB seeking recovery from your DM after they deal with the other driver's claim. OP, your mum, by virtue of her dementia, cannot be held liable for the resultant damage she's caused to the other car by her driving. No matter what anyone says they think should happen, legally you are not obligated to compensate the other person for their damage. Tell them to go to MIB & nothing more beyond that. This isn't your fault, it's not your responsibility & your mum is not capable of understanding the implications of her actions here. The police can't convict your DM due to her diminished mental health - for the same reasons the other party can't hold your DM liable for their damage as she lacks capacity to understand the consequences of her actions.

I am not a lawyer but have dealt with ins claims for 20+ years & there's no way I'd have a hope in successfully suing someone for repair costs to a car on any claim, when they suffered from dementia. Irrespective of the other party's level of cover, or not wanting to affect their NCD - that's what the MIB are for, when there is no valid ins cover in place on a car/driver that caused an accident.

The way it works is that the other drivers insurers will look into a claim. Will do an MIDIS search and find out the car is uninsured. They should direct the claim to the MIB themselves.

However the MIB can claw back money it paid out directly from the responsible party anyway. So you may end up having to pay out anyway.

You're lucky it was just a dented bumper and not a fatal accident claim.

But do feel free to tell me what LEGAL action you would have taken in my situation.

Told the DVLA. They could have brought the police into it.

sorry, the impression i have of your mother is confusing, you either think she's well enough to reason with to stop her driving plus is able to get her car fixed independently and can involve the police if you over step the mark or she's not. I'll leave this here.

I have been there, and have done it btw (not with dementia but similar)

The GP and I both told the DVLA. Unbeknownst to us they cancelled her licence but only told her, and she obviously didn't tell us. We kept reporting, assuming they were just being slow. Another failing of the system that the DVLA don't notify the people who actually want the driver to stop.

I think anyone saying you haven't acted correctly clearly have no idea how difficult it is to deal with someone with dementia. Or how fucking horrible the disease is. It is not straightforward or rational. A person suffering with it may have lucid moments, that doesn't mean they have any insight into the risk they are placing themselves- or others under. And No, you can't just remove someone's property without their consent. It is a very difficult position to be in.
OP I have no other advice but it sounds like you have been doing your best so good luck in dealing with it all.

Get the other driver to provide invoices for the work needed

Can your mother afford to pay the damage if it was a reasonable quote? Have you had any contact with the other driver? They may be a perfectly nice person who just wants their dented bumper fixed and no more. Would it be possible to ask if they have an idea of the damage and estimate for the repair before getting into all sorts of contortions and involving insurers, etc

Friend of mine backed into a car and dented the bumper, only a small job but other driver insisted on involving insurers who insisted on a certain garage. They kept the car for weeks and by the time the claim was submitted claimed the car was undriveable and towed in (it had been driven for two weeks after the accident and was driven in) and claimed a hire car for the other driver at extortionate rates. Total bill around £5k and ended up in court.

The other driver said after that she really regretted insisting on the insurers

And again, FreeNiki is wrong to state the MIB will claw anything back from your DM, OP. They would, just like the police, have to weigh up the prospects of success of trying that & likelihood of a court finding your DM liable given her diminished mental capacity as a result of her dementia. In other words, there is zero prospect of the MIB pursuing you or your DM for anything they might pay out for the damage to the other car.

DO NOT PAY ANYTHING. Refer them to MIB broken record style as suggested up thread.

sounds fucking awful mate, i hope you get it sorted.

I don't know about the insurance claim but OP is right about the car/keys issue. I have tried taking keys off someone I knew to be drink driving only to be told by the police I had to give them back as it was considered theft. Eventually I had to resort to getting her caught on the act. It was horrific knowing she was driving under the influence and I couldn't make it safe.

Stop worrying yourself silly the other party can and should report it to their insurance company if they have the uninsured drivers promise they will be fine and not out of pocket. Your mums last insurance company will have to pick up the bill ( the MIB bit) it's very unlikely that they will try to recover this from your mum due to her position. if the claim is large they will prove to the MIB that they gave warnings to cancel (copies if letters). The problem with paying the third party directly is that they could take the money and still claim.

ImaginaryCat is quite right.

No matter how unwise the decision, how unsafe the individual and others may be from the ramifications of that decision, we do not have the right to take preventative measures such as taking car keys away.

She has done absolutely nothing wrong here. As she says, her mother is a victim. I would add to that, so is she.

Dementia at only 62?
So sorry, OP.
Horrendous situation.

You take the battery our of the car. Impossible to start it and mum probably won't be able to work out why.

Honestly you should have done more to prevent this. Take the keys if you have to. No police officer would prosecute for that. How would they know your mum hadn't just lost them? I think you have to take some responsibility here. It could have been a child she hit.

OP, I'm so sorry you are in this situation. You've received an unfair kicking here :( my nan has dementia and the only way we stopped her driving was to declare her car in road worthy the second something went wrong with it. Luckily my uncle was a mechanic and the only person she trusted with it but that bloody car (it was years old) held on for months before he could legitimately find a reason to say it wasn't fit. My aunt paid for 'her' next car and never gave her the keys. It was then all in my aunt's name and she had no come back. My nan was given the scrappage money and it was all above board.
My point is I know how hard it is to stop someone driving, it's never as simple as letting the tyres down or stealing the keys. There are so many legal loopholes and without evidence, even with dvla reporting the person, the police's hands are tied :(
Big hugs to you op, you are doing just fine

Nora, did you read the thread? DM lives next door to a garage that repairs the car when it won't start. She took legal advice, spoke to police, to the DVLA etc. The system is flawed, I suggest you campaign to get it changed and stop criticising the person who is attempting to look after a 62 year old with dementia who is not cooperating.

Sorry Cat, I'm glad some posters on here have been clear about the legal position. I know how hard things have been in this situation.

I've just had to help my DPs insure their car, and taken my DF off the policy. Fortunately, he won't drive anywhere. It worries me that he may become more ill and forget that he shouldn't drive, though.

Helping feisty older people as they lose capacity is very dificult.