My daughter's car.....again

[Dutchoma]

My daughter is in dispute with her local council over council tax. She thought someone was sorting things out for her, but this morning bailiffs came to her door and clamped her car. They took no notice of the fact that the car is in my name and she had the receipt to prove it. What on earth can we do?
Her local MP is no help, her local councillor is no help.

They appear to have clamped your car illegally. If they have purchased the debt they don't need authorisation to deal with you. If they have not bought the debt but are acting on behalf of the council it is a different matter. They would still have clamped your car illegally but the council would have some say in the matter. So you need to be sure you understand the situation.

You can try their trade association. You could also try writing to them pointing out that breaching the FCA's rules can affect their FCA authorisation.

Being the registered keeper, as many have said, does not define ownership. However, if you are the registered keeper how would the bailiffs have come to the car in the first place? They don't just clamp random cars that are outside houses

Councils don't go for CCJs - they don't need too, they have their own methods for recovery built into the Council Tax Regulations. It'd be exceedingly rare for a council to get a CCJ. I can't find any online records suggesting any UK councils have so far this year.

Councils would go for a liability order, instead. These are granted at magistrates courts and give bailiffs permission to seize goods to satisfy the debt. Does your DD have a liability order against her?

Also did your daughter submit vulnerability paperwork? What was the outcome of that?

Regardless off who paid for the car if your daughter is the registered owner and it's free off finance then they are allowed to remove the Car I'm afraid unless it is registered as a disabled vehicle.

Also....

Your title 'my daughters car'
In the OP 'her car'

I would say it IS your daughters car and you both know it. Maybe it is time for her to step up and accept responsibility for her council tax debt. Trying to get the car out of it is going to teach her nothing.

I see we are back to the bad legal advice again. Just to repeat, there is no such thing as the registered owner. Being the registered keeper does not make you the owner of a vehicle. Being the only driver does not make you the owner. The OP has said that she would receive the money if the car is sold. That means it is her car, not her daughter's. Bailiffs cannot simply decide that the car belongs to the OP's daughter. Debt collectors also cannot make any such decision.

It is true that the council would go for a liability order before sending in bailiffs. However, if the OP is right and the council has sold the debt the debt collector would need a CCJ. This is why it is important to understand exactly what has happened here.

The car belongs to the daughter. The daughter needs o face her responsibilities. The mother needs to stop enabling and tell her to adult.

I don't think the debt will have been sold. For a start, the council appear to be writing to your daughter? And it'd be nothing to do with them if they'd sold the debt.

The advice for different scenarios is really different so it's important that we know exactly what has happened. What makes you think that the debt has been sold? Who are the bailiffs, and is there a liability order?

The car belongs to the daughter

No it does not. On 12th October the OP said that the proceeds of any sale would go to her. That means it is her car. It may be on loan to her daughter but it belongs to the OP.

No it does not. On 12th October the OP said that the proceeds of any sale would go to her. That means it is her car. on the 12th October she also titled this post 'my DAUGHTERS car' and then proceeded to write an opening post giving some details which included discussing her DAUGHTERS car. I would say it's quite conclusive that since even the OP calls the car her daughters, that the car is indeed, her daughters

The fact she refers to the car on this thread as her daughter's is meaningless legally. Even if she refers to it that way in real life it makes no difference. When I was young I had a car which I referred to as mine and which my parent's referred to as prh's car. I was the registered keeper. I insured it. I was the only person who drove it. But I did not own that car. It belonged to my father. It was not mine to sell.

In the same way as that car was "mine", the OP's car is her daughter's in the sense that it is on loan to her, she is the registered keeper and the main driver. However, this is a board about legal matters. What matters legally is who has the right to sell the car and would receive the proceeds of any sale. That is the OP. It is therefore her car.

If a dispute about ownership of the car went to court, the way the OP and her daughter refer to the car would not be conclusive. The court would want to know who has the rights associated with ownership. The OP clearly bought the car. Both the OP and her daughter appear to have been clear throughout that the OP still has the rights associated with ownership and that she is the owner, regardless of the fact that it may normally be referred to as the daughter's car. The courts would therefore conclude that it is her car.

The last sentence should be "The courts would therefore conclude that it is the OP's car".

The fact she refers to the car on this thread as her daughter's is meaningless legally I wasn't talking legally. I was talking about morals and taking responsibility.

Anchor yes, she did fill in vulnerability papers and therefore did not have to the Magistrates Court for a liability order to be made. But that only referred to this year. But this debt apparently refers to three previous years. She was completely on benefits for a while and therefore did not pay any council tax. Then the law changed and everyone had to pay council tax. This she missed. She kept sending in details of her benefits, but for some reason there was a beak in communication. My daughter is quite aware that she is not blameless in this, she had a hard time and was not as pro-active as she could and should have been. But between us we have paid over £1500 to the council, that is apart from the £1,000+ we are disputing here.
Elisandra you have a very good point here. I am not sure of how well she communicates, even with me. I'm sure that we are no way at the end of the line here, but I'm not sure how to proceed.
phr47bridge thank you again for your steadfast answering and calm reason.

You could sell the car and pay the bill

Okay, so there's definitely a liability order for this year, and potentially for previous years?

Did she send the vulnerability template to both the council and the bailiffs, with proof of her vulnerability? If so, did they give her time to get advice or make any recommendations? Sometimes they do say they don't accept the vulnerability and you have to go a bit hardball with them.

Is there any chance you could get all the paperwork from her so we can see where she stands? The presence of liability orders and vulnerabilities makes it complicated, not to mention benefits and the value of the car relating to the debt.

Whatever the reason for the debt is is largely irrelevant - bailiffs are always awful and she was probably doing her best. All we can do now is make sure they are acting lawfully and prepare her for what to do next and how this will end

No, there is an exemption for this year, because of the vulnerability application. The debt relates to previous years and we are not sure how they are computing this. It would be very helpful to have this information, we made an apppointment to see the council when the bailiff/debt collector first called, but they cancelled the appointment at very short notice. We have not been able to speak to them at all. My daughter works, I am not in the same town, so communication isn't always easy.
And can I please state here again, just in case anybody has missed prh47bridge's frequent reminders, that I am the owner of the car and we have the invoice to prove it. Whoever it was that came to the house and clamped it and only unclamped it when I paid over £1,000. He would not look at the invoice and was ringing up for the car to be taken away. MY CAR.

When you insure a car they ask who is the owner, registered keeper and main driver. What's on the insurance policy? There's a national database that can be accessed by anyone to see details of insurers details, may be how the car came to be clamped in the first place.

Public access to the insurance database mentioned by BeezerBubble is for use in connection with road traffic accidents only. Anyone using it for other purposes is liable to be blocked. The only information you get is the policy number, the name of the insurance company and the claims contact number. There is a fee for this information. It will not tell you who has insured the car, who owns the car or any other details. I therefore doubt that the insurance database had anything to do with this vehicle being clamped.

Voice of knowledge and reason once again . Thanks prh47bridge

If she is the registered keeper then she is the owner of the car.

No, log book isn't proof of ownership.

An easy way to describe the difference between ownership and registered keeper: If I have a car on lease hire for example. The owner of the car is the lease hire company. The registered keeper is me, the car is registered to me at my address.

Whatever info is available to 3rd parties is not really the point though. Maybe small print in policy allows info to be shared with interested parties ie. Debt collectors. What was declared on the policy re ownership etc.? Proof to support your case or otherwise.