My daughter's car.....again

[Dutchoma]

My daughter is in dispute with her local council over council tax. She thought someone was sorting things out for her, but this morning bailiffs came to her door and clamped her car. They took no notice of the fact that the car is in my name and she had the receipt to prove it. What on earth can we do?
Her local MP is no help, her local councillor is no help.

Has this been to court?

As has been pointed out several times, being named as the registered keeper of a vehicle does not make you the owner. Insuring it does not make you the owner. Being the only person who drives it does not make you the owner. The question is who would receive the proceeds of any sale. If that is the OP she is the owner of the car and she has loaned it to her daughter. It only belongs to the OP's daughter if she would receive the proceeds of any sale. It is not the job of the bailiffs to decide that the OP has given the car to her daughter as a gift. They have no power to make any such decision.

OP - if the car belongs to you the bailiffs have acted illegally. They should have left a notice of immobilisation with a 24-hour telephone number you can contact. Insist that they remove the clamps from your car. Point out that the bailiff clamped your car despite being given clear evidence that the car did not belong to your daughter. If they refuse you can take legal action against them. You could also try contacting the council if you get no joy from the bailiffs.

Your daughter will, of course, have to settle this debt unless she can prove she does not owe the money. But they should not be enforcing it by clamping someone else's goods.

Well, the proceeds from the sale of the car would of course go to the council in this instance. But in ordinary circumstances (like for instance the proceeds of her previous car) would come to me. I thought that indeed it said in the logbook that the registered driver may not be the owner, as isthe case here.
No, it has not come to court.
I have now paid part of the debt and will go with her to the council offices as I am totally fed up with them saying that she owes more and more money without giving any indication as to what year it applies to or wht deductions for benefits have been made (if any).
And yes, she is vulnerable as the single parent of two children under ten and she had an earlier undertaking from the council that they would sort things out.

Well, the proceeds from the sale of the car would of course go to the council in this instance

No they wouldn't. As it belongs to you, if the council is stupid enough to sell it they must pay the proceeds to you. They cannot use the proceeds to pay off your daughter's debt.

I'm really grateful to you prh47bridge for your comments. Do you know of a case that has come to court and settled this issue? Is it called the precedent? And is there somewhere you can complain about the behaviour of this particular bailiff? He was really unpleasant when I briefly spoke to him, calling me 'young lady' and using my Christian name. When I picked him up and said it was 'Mrs ..' to him, he would no longer speak to me. Brat.
I just hope we can get someone at the council to speak to us on Friday, it is a nerve racking situation. And I am very pleased to have some help from you, thank you again.

You only need a precedent where interpretation of the law is in doubt. In this case it is not. A bailiff can only seize goods that belong to the person named on the distress warrant - your daughter in this case. They cannot take goods belonging to the debtor's partner, let alone the debtor's relatives.

You need to contact the bailiff firm as soon as possible. Don't wait until you see the council on Friday. If they won't immediately release your car you need to write to the bailiffs saying you want to claim your car back. You must write within 7 days of them clamping the car. The bailiffs may then contact the council for their opinion. If they agree they will tell the bailiffs to return your car. If they don't you can take them to court. There is nothing wrong with talking to the council - that may get it resolved quickly. But be aware of the time limit to contact the bailiff.

To complain about a bailiff you should start with his employers, sending a copy to the council. If you are unhappy with the response you can complain to the Local Government Ombudsman and/or a bailiff trade association if the bailiff firm is a member.

The car has ben released as we paid part of what they wanted: over £1,000.
I will talk to my daughter tomorrow and get the details of the firm off her and then write to them, copying in the council.
Thanks again for your input.

Would there be any chance of getting the money I paid them back from them? With or without threatening to take them to the Small Claims Court?

It is a shame you did not insist they release the car on the basis that they had no right to seize it and therefore their actions were unlawful. As things stand you have paid part of your daughter's debt on her behalf. You could argue that the payment was obtained under duress due to them seizing your car unlawfully and that it should therefore be repaid. Without knowing what paperwork, if any, you signed or what was said it is difficult to know your chances of getting your money back but there is no harm in trying. However, the council will want their money and the bailiffs will want their fees so, even if you get your money back, your daughter may have to pay some or all of it. Depending on the position re Council Tax, it may be better to simply agree with your daughter that she owes this money to you.

We did tell them that it was illegal to take the car and he just laughed and phoned the towing company. Police could not be reached, they had not picked up the phone after 10 minutes.
He did not even look at the receipts to prove it was my car.
The trouble with the council is that we have no idea how much my daughter owes them if anything, as she is on benefits and has already paid nearly £2,000 this year alone.
It was of course not our choice for the council to incur bailiffs' costs.

It sounds like the bailiff has bullied you. Whatever you choose to do about the money I would certainly lodge a complaint.

prh47bridge, can I draw on your knowledge again, please.

I did send them a letter demanding they give my money back by return of post. I got an answer saying they would investigate and reply within ten days. That is three weeks ago. What do I do next? How do I find out who the professional association are that oversees this particular bailiff? Do I need to give them another chance?

There are several options.

You can complain to their trade body. Check their website and any documentation they have given you to see if it states any trade association memberships. You can also look at the websites of the trade bodies for lists of members.

As the debtor in this case is your local council you can also complain to the Local Government Ombudsman. This won't cost you anything and may result in the council being told to refund your money. However, the LGO's decisions are not binding and councils do occasionally refuse to comply. Note that the LGO's decisions are not binding on you either. You can still take the bailiffs to court even if the LGO decides against you.

Finally, you could take legal action against the bailiff. Before doing that you need to write to them again giving a deadline for return of your money - not return of post this time but something that gives them a chance to comply. I would suggest two weeks. Say that if they have not returned your money by that time you will take legal action against them. This is called a letter before action. If they fail to return your money by the deadline you can start a claim against them. This will be a small claim. As it is over £1,000 it will cost you £70 to file a claim online (I am assuming it is less than £1,500). You will be able to reclaim your court fees from the bailiffs if you win. You can also claim interest on the amount they owe you. I would suggest that you should consider this a last resort. Try the other routes first.

Right, thank you. Such comprehensive advice, very grateful. My daughter has lodged a complaint with the LGOmbudsman and has had an acknowledgment last Friday. That is complaining about the council, I am dealing with the bailiffs. The council may, or may not have a claim to the money, our complaint is that they have not given adequate advice about what is outstanding. In fairness, I thing my darling daughter has not always been, what shall we say, pro-active in dealing with them, but then, they are pretty hopeless.
The irony with looking at the bailiff's website is that they will give you advice about how to instruct them to get the bailiffs off your back, not exactly what I want. I have a friend who is involved in debt counselling, I will ask her when I see her today whether she has any dealings with this firm and who their trade association is.
I have a feeling that they may play ball before it comes to court, but will let it come to the wire before they do.
I will write the letter before action today and hopefully copy in their trade association.
It is knowing what to threaten effectively and you have given me such help, thanks again.

If she is the registered keeper then she is the owner of the car. All the receipt proves is that it was a gift from you. Now it's hers.

Good grief - the MN piley-on of incorrect advice in legal matters never ceases to amaze me. Thank god for prh47bridge.

Who needs experts anyway?

Amen to that Collaborate. I am so incredibly thankful to prh47bridge. I was so totally bullied by this blessed bailiff, hopefully with some more help we can get it sorted.

Thank you both for your kind words. Always glad to help.

Can I ask for some more information please. I sent a letter to the debt collectors asking for the return of the money by the 22nd November, as you suggested 14 days from the date of the letter. I have heard nothing.
I have spoken to my daughter who tells me that they have charged her with another £1.000 + which they say is her outstanding council tax over four years. She does not have the council's breakdown of this money and says that the debt collectors have 'bought' the bad debt from the council and are now pursuing her for it at £25 per week. I have no idea how this even works, I had never heard of anybody doing this. My dd says it is akin to payday loans. My fear is that she will be forever paying this off as they might add interest to it. If I get my £1,000+ back from them will they just add that to her debt and so add another however many years to her paying it off. It is such a nightmare, the only ray of hope is that the council have agreed not to take her to court but to cancel this year's council tax, which apparently they can do as discretionary gesture.
If you could shed any light on it I would be most grateful.

Are they debt collectors or bailiffs? The two have very different powers. If they are not bailiffs they may have committed an offence when they clamped your car.

Councils and businesses do sell debts to debt collectors. It means they don't get all their money but they get most of it and they don't have to worry about the debt any more. The debt collector then tries to make a profit by collecting all of the original debt.

The terms of the debt have not changed. The council cannot charge interest on Council Tax debts so the debt collector cannot do so either.

The money you paid should have been deducted from your daughter's debt. If you get it back it will therefore be added back on to your daughter's debt.

I would suggest that you and your daughter contact a debt charity such as Step Change. They will provide free advice to help your daughter sort out this situation.

I don't know. When you google them they come up either as bailffs or as debt collectors. They did not have a warrant and in any way should not have clamped my car.
I think the very first thing we need to find out is what this council tax debt actually is. It is a relief to know that they cannot add interest. I do want my £1,000 back as I don't think they should have bullied it out of us and because I don't know what this debt entails.

I think dd has been in touch with Stepchange and with CAP and has not found them very helpful. I have connectons with CAP and may try to get some information from them.
As always thank you very much for your help.

Why doesnt she pay her council tax?

There was no county court judgment before the 'gentleman' visited my daughter's home. There still isn't as court action was dropped yesterday.

50bales the situation was complex, with elements of my daughter's inablity to cope with the financial pressures and the inadequacy of the council to communicate.

If there is definitely no CCJ they were debt collectors, not bailiffs. In the absence of a court order they had no right to clamp your car, tow it away or demand money to release your car. On the basis of the information you have posted here they may have committed an offence when they clamped your car. They may also be guilty of harassment. I suggest you and your daughter talk to your local CAB about the debt collector's behaviour. Once they are in possession of all the facts they should be able to provide more detailed advice.

I have now had a letter from them, this minute, saying that they have no authorisation to deal with me and that they have issued a response to my dd in response to my letter of 17 October. As far as I know this was a letter demanding more money in weekly instalments of £25.

There was no CCJ, thanks for clarifying that. I'm not sure that the CAB where my daughter lives are much help, but it seems that we do need some support. Do you think writing to their trade organisation could be the next step?

Is your daughter able to communicate well?
You have said that Stepchange, CAP and CAB have not been much help. Of course individual experiences vary, but these are all organisations that actually have quite a good reputation.
That she has found none of them helpful suggests to me that she might need you, or someone else, to advocate for her with them?