Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Legal matters

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you have any legal concerns we suggest you consult a solicitor.

Original poster

abducting my kids

81 replies

mamamiamoo · 22/09/2016 19:41

a dramatic title but I am currently outside of the UK in the country of my husband and wish to return to the UK asap with my kids.

The children are British nationals but the country we live in is not signed to the Hague convention and has a corrupt and incompetent legal system.
My husband and I have been separated for a couple of years and he is now threatening to have my visa cancelled and to keep the kids here. I take his threats seriously as he has done a lot of terrible things already and am planning to leave as soon as possible without alerting anyone.

However I am worried that I won't be be able to enter the UK without a letter of permission from him as my passport is not in married/childrens surname.

Any advice appreciated

OP posts:
Original poster
mamamiamoo · 23/09/2016 08:23

Thank you for all your thoughtful replies. Wish us luck!

OP posts:
PacificDogwod · 23/09/2016 08:27

Wishing you the very best of luck.

Just to add my experience: I travel with my children and our names are not the same. I take copies of their birth certificates and that has always been enough to prove that I am their parent.
Your circumstances are of course much more worrying, but please do not be scared for the sake of documentation.
Thanks

Footle · 23/09/2016 08:32

Oh yes, plenty of us wishing you luck , I'm quite sure. Safe journey home.

ThenLaterWhenItGotDark · 23/09/2016 08:35

You won't have a problem getting into the UK, your problem would be leaving the other country.

Please don't listen to armchair lawyers telling you to "just do it", you need proper advice as familylawsolicitor has said. You would run the risk of being thrown in jail for abduction (Marnie Pearce anyone???) and having your children removed from you.

You wouldn't smuggle heroin out of the country just because "I've never been stopped" so don't even consider doing it with your children.

Rachcakes · 23/09/2016 08:37

I don't have experience of your exact situation but my son has my maiden name and my passport is in my married name.
We travelled back from Spain this summer and were each asked what our relationship was.
DH first - stepson, DS - mum and step-dad, me - I'm his mum.
They didn't make a fuss but asked that next time I brought some proof. But just our word was enough and they never even asked about his dad.
My mum travels to Norway regularly with my other son. The first time she was asked, explained and was allowed through. Now I write her a letter, but I've no idea how they would know it's genuine. She has a photocopy of his BC too.

ThenLaterWhenItGotDark · 23/09/2016 08:39

PS, the whole different-surname thing is a bit of a red herring- many countries (Italy/Spain) have children with different surnames as a matter of course. Border officials are told in training that what they need to look closely at are one parent only travelling with children. Obviously, if that one parent also has a different surname, then the checks will be done more closely.

I travel about 8 times a year with my child, different surname, and get asked for my letter of permission (upon entering the UK, never on leaving) about half the times I travel) Have never been asked upon either leaving or entering the country we live in.

Lagirafe · 23/09/2016 08:41

Good luck Flowers

strawberrybootlace · 23/09/2016 08:41

I often travel into the UK alone with my dc, who have my DH's surname. Occasionally border control will ask them a question (who is this, where are you going etc.) or deliberately make a mistake to see if the child corrects them ('So you are Jane!' - child responds 'no I'm Sally!').

Very occasionally I get asked to produce their birth certificates to prove that I am the mother. Nobody has ever asked me about their dad. I was advised to always have their birth certificates handy though, due to the different surnames.

Good luck OP.

youcannoteatconkers · 23/09/2016 08:41

Are you British op?

If so presuming you are not like to be questioned at your end the only thing the UK border control are asking those who have different surnames sometimes if proof that the child is yours.

Birth certs are fine.

NameChange30 · 23/09/2016 08:42

I think you should just go. I agree with the PPs who said that you will be fine if you take their passports and birth certificates and say you're visiting family in the UK.

You can seek legal advice when you get home. If you want reassurance before you go, you could call the free Rights of Women family law helpline on 020 7251 6577. The lines are open today between 12 and 2pm GMT.
rightsofwomen.org.uk/get-advice/family-law/

Is your husband abusive or controlling? It sounds like it. Is there an equivalent of Women's Aid in the country you're in now?

strawberrybootlace · 23/09/2016 08:43

But please do check that you are allowed to leave the country that you are in.

Elllicam · 23/09/2016 08:43

Good luck! Hope you get back to the UK safely with the kids.

AMR123456 · 23/09/2016 08:52

No advice but just wishing you the best of luck getting back

ThenLaterWhenItGotDark · 23/09/2016 08:52

This thread beggars belief. People really need to stop with the anecdotal evidence- those of us who live abroad have all travelled alone with our children and we haven't had them taken away and been thrown into jail.

But then, (seeing as everyone else is assuming and presuming, I'll do the same....Hmm) none of us with our anecdotes are flying out of non-Hague convention country escaping from our husbands and taking our children away from him illegally are we?

Please think before you advise this woman to do just that. It might all be fine, it might not.

PacificDogwod · 23/09/2016 08:57

Please think before you advise this woman to do just that. It might all be fine, it might not.

That is very true.

If our anecdotes have helped your anxiety - fine.
But seek proper legal advice; that seems only sensible.

Iflyaway · 23/09/2016 09:07

I'm so sorry you're in this situation.

I would advise you to contact a lawyer from this website.

www.reunite.org/

All the best.

palanca · 23/09/2016 09:42

I am a specialist lawyer doing this sort of work. The last posts on here I am afraid are the only sensible posts.

Contact Reunite immediately - they are the specialists and will have lots of information about the country you are in. It may well be a criminal offence there to remove a child - you could end up being extradited back there .....

Reunite have an excellent helpline and also an excellent list of specialist lawyers

palanca · 23/09/2016 09:42

I would also advise you to ask MN to remove this thread asap

iwantavuvezela · 23/09/2016 10:04

Mama
My best advice to you is to look either on the website of the country you are hoping to leave / or phone the embassy and ask them what the requirements are. YOu can always say you are going for a break and need to know what you need to take to leave and re-enter the country. I do not think you will have any problems entering the UK with the papers you have, however it might be different in leaving.

Last year my daughter and I were refused to be able to fly from Heathrow to South Africa as I did not have the correct documents. (we had to get another flight and were not allowed on the original one) I had my daughter's birth certificate (full) her passport and a copy of my husbands passport. However I needed to get a notarized copy (stamped by a solicitor) of my husband's passport and a letter from him giving me permission to leave the UK. There was a template on the website which was pretty easy to fill out.

Can you get a copy of your husbands passport, and have it notarized., you could always fill out a permission to leave letter and "sign" it in his signature if you are worried about your safety.

However, even though my husband was in the country, could be spoken to on the phone, could come to the airport, they still needed the required documents. So please look into it, to make sure that when you leave you are able to produce them. I also needed to produce these documents at the SA end when flying back to UK. (In the UK I did not need these documents at all, but I was not allowed on the flight without them)

Original poster
mamamiamoo · 23/09/2016 10:09

thanks for your concern.. I am reassured by the number of anecdotes of people travelling with their children of different names, I have also done this and whilst I know the risk of being prevented leaving or entering is low if I move quickly without anyone realising in advance I am very glad of the practical advice. I have contacted lawyers recommended here but I might not receive replies in time and not got any luck with British High Commission here. So I appreciate the reunite tip and will contact now.
I hope the thread is not removed as i've found it useful and appreciate any advice given.

OP posts:
GlitteryFluff · 23/09/2016 10:12

Wishing you luck op.
I have no advice by I hope everything goes smoothly for you.

PacificDogwod · 23/09/2016 10:26

mama, the advice for you to ask MNHQ to remove the thread is to protect you, not for any other reason.

Best of luck Thanks

Original poster
mamamiamoo · 23/09/2016 10:59

Just an update - in case its useful for anyone to know - whilst reunite are not lawyers they have experience and advised the exact opposite of the advice I'd received from a lawyer here.
To not start any formal legal requests for custody on arrival but to 'lay low' and wait and see if my husband does anything. The idea being that if I start proceedings he will be forced to respond yet he might not bother off his own steam.
As actually the UK has in some cases of child abduction returned children to their country of 'habitual residence' which this country would be considered as we've lived here 5 years.
However reunite also think it highly unlikely I would be prevented from entering the UK.
Leaving without informing and receiving consent of their father will be considered as abduction which he could pursue legally if he chose to.
I am terrified and actually sick at the thought of having to take my children away from their friends and even their (abusive) father without giving them a chance to say goodbye but I really don't feel I have a choice. If I wait too long he could obtain an exit ban very easily and the consequences for the children is too horrible to contemplate.

OP posts:
DarkBlueEyes · 23/09/2016 11:55

Sweetheart I wish you all the very best from the bottom of my heart. You are doing the right thing and displaying amazing courage. I have a hyphenated name (min-dh) and my girls have DH's name. I have only ever been asked once (USA) about them - the immigration officer asked the girls "who is this lady?" pointing at me. They looked at her blankly. I've never had an issue and I hope and pray that your trip will go smoothly. Please come back and update us when you are safely home.

Godspeed.

juneau · 23/09/2016 11:59

I've often travelled alone with my kids and never been questioned about it by British border officials. If you are British citizens returning to the UK and you have the children's birth certs with you, I can't see there would be an issue. In your situation I would just book the flights and come home. Its a far less risky proposition than staying where you are.

Swipe left for the next trending thread