Contact/child arrangements order

[kittybiscuits]

Hi

Contact has been fraught for 18 months since separation. I have advised my ex via emails of upset and distress he has caused to the children on many occasions . He doesn't respond. He has a lot of issues. He has previously threatened to file to court for CAO but they were empty threats. No overnight contact for more than a year. Younger child is 12.5 and recently told him to his face that she was very angry and upset with him and due to his response she told him she does not want to see him any more.

He has appointed a FFJ type 'just for men' solicitor saying he will file to court if I do not agree to a long list of demands including overnight contact every other weekend, holidays abroad etc. Older child is 18 so can make their own mind up and has very occasional brief contact. He has given 14 days for me to agree with his terms or he will file.

I have booked to see my solicitor. But I am seeking a view on whether the court will force contact on a bright articulate child who is 12 years and 8 months. His solicitor claims he has no idea why contact has stopped and does not believe it is the child's wishes. Even though she told him to his face.

Thanks in advance if anyone can offer a view on the range of possible outcomes. There are good reasons why contact has diminished and now stopped.

There hasn't been any change that means NRPs are favoured.

If you read the Women's Aid forum, they say it's biased towards fathers. If you read any father's forum, they say it's biased towards mothers.

In my experience, the courts are just risk averse and aren't biased towards one gender or another.

The problem is there where there is no evidence, the court can't just go on an allegation. This is how it should be. Imagine if your ex came to court with a load of false allegations and the court took them as fact. Children of any age can be influenced and coached. Just look at the relationships board and see how many adults there are influenced and coached by their partners.

There is case law, I believe, that says that the court must exhaust all options before ordering that there should be no contact. As a PP said, 12 years old is much too young to understand the full implications of choosing not to have any relationship with a parent. That is why the court can't just go with the child's wishes for there to be no contact.

You say you don't want no contact but then say you want him to respect your daughters wishes, which is for no contact. That approach would be picked apart in court if he's got a barrister.

I am not seeking an order to enforce no contact. He is seeking an order to force contact. My daughter is not saying she will never see him again. She will not see him at the moment. The evidence IS her experiences and her feelings. I hope that doesn't count for nothing in court. If it counts for nothing, the court will be precisely mirroring her father's response. He doesn't care what contact is like for her or how his actions upset her or make her angry.

'The Parental Involvement Provision in section 11 of the Children and Families Act 2014 will come into force on 22 October and will apply to cases started on or after that date. It won’t apply to cases already going through the courts before 22 October. This Parental Involvement Provision is not about giving parents new ‘rights’ or the 50/50 division of children’s time - it’s about achieving a culture change by making clearer the court’s approach to these issues.'

I am not seeking an order to enforce no contact. He is seeking an order to force contact.

If you just object to his request for contact, then you are requesting that the court orders "no contact". That's how it works - it's adversarial; with two opposing sides.

If you have an alternative suggestion - 6 months indirect contact, followed by a build up of face to face, then the court will consider it. But it is unlikely that they will place the responsibility for maintaining your DDs relationship with her dad in her own hands. She's 12. It's far too big a responsibility. And the longer there is no contact between them, the harder it will be for her to reinitiate.

But, if he is incapable of remaining sober and respectable, then that will corroborate your DDs allegations, surely? If he's pissed in court, he won't do himself any favours.

The Parental Involvement Provision means very little, if anything, in practise. Involvement is anything from the NRP being allowed to send one Christmas card a year.

The overriding principle is the child's welfare.

The loss of relationship with a parent is a huge deal. The courts would, rightly IMO, rather try and resolve the problems that have created contact refusal and create the right conditions for contact to eventually go ahead rather than just calling a halt to it with a vague notion that the child may change their mind at some point in the future.

He won't be pissed in court. He just gets quietly drunk 365 days per year in his free time and has done for 30 years. He doesn't miss work.

Thanks for explaining further. Do you think the court will consider the issues I have raised on with him on my daughter's behalf? Regular upset at most contacts. Not life threatening or a risk to her immediate safety. Just that contact has been a constant source of worry and upset? He has never responded to these except in the early days when he responded with counter-allegations.

Not life threatening or a risk to her immediate safety. Just that contact has been a constant source of worry and upset?

The expectation usually is that you, as her primary carer, can mitigate against that, particularly at her age - she can communicate with you (and him), learn coping strategies, access independent support.

All of those things have been done. It has remained a constant source of upset and distress. He does not take on board the feelings of other people. He just argues. And carries on.

Unfortunately there are lots of people with personalities like that.

It isn't considered to be incompatible with being a parent.

NN, I am not angry, just utterly exhausted, every which way.

Cafcass is very much any dad is better than no dad and in their offices there are posters about how children need both parents. Very much on the fathers side.
Dd will be able to have her say and explain to cafcass why she doesn't want to go. Your solicitor can also make a statement on her behalf. You can also request indirect contact or supervised contact on the basis of him proving his commitment to his child. That will show the court that you're willing to meet him half way.
You can appeal any decision if youre not happy.
At the end of the day dd is old enough to make up her own mind and that will be the biggest thing the judge looks at.
My ex went for everything and was told he wasn't allowed even indirect contact due to the stress and anxiety he was causing me and my son. You need a good solicitor and an understanding judge. Worse case scenario you can't physically force a 12 (more likely 13/14 when a decision is made) year old to go with someone she doesn't want to go with.

Cafcass is very much any dad is better than no dad and in their offices there are posters about how children need both parents. Very much on the fathers side.

Favouring both parents involvement in a DCs life is not exclusively "father-centric" - often it's a father trying to protect DCs from an abusive mother but courts are reluctant to make an order that would cut the mother out of the DCs life.

They only 'favour the dad' if you start from the viewpoint that the mum is the default parent. For many of us, that isn't the case.

So much incorrect information in that post, Greenyogagirl.

I would reply back to his solicitor and clearly and calmly state back what contact your DD would like at this moment in time and asking why he is threatening court without first going through the usual route of mediation (even if it's just the once for you to explain he is abusive etc).

I would include things such as:

DD does not want to spend time with x when he is under the influence of alcohol or drugs
DD does not want to spend overnights since x said "......" to her older sister
DD has felt alienated by x due to his behaviour on a b c - how does he suggest that he resolves this so as to not make her feel more distraught at enforced contact?

Basically reply so his solicitor is more fully aware of the history and that you are not adverse to arranging contact but instead rightly are seeking contact suitable/appropriate for your DD.

Considering my 2 year court case regarding child contact ended just a couple of months ago I disagree and speak from my own experience.

They favour the dad as in they don't care if he's an alcoholic or a danger to the child. It should be about what's best for the child and a lot of times its not.

greeny we've all got our own experiences. Mine is of a system that repeatedly supported a physically and emotionally abusive mother at the expense of overnight contact with the father.

Exactly. We can only go on our own experience.

You need to say it's your experience then. Your post reads as if all CAFCASS officers are pro-father, which simply isn't the case.

We can only go on our own experience.

Well No, because I don't think the system "favours mothers" - even though in my experience it was the mother who was favoured.
As a PP said, it's a system that tries to do what is best for the DCs while at the same time putting safeguards in place to ensure that it is not used maliciously by parents for their own ends.
It doesn't always get it right - sometimes with tragic results.

I was determined I was not going to put my own DD through the court process and agreed to many of her dads demands despite having doubts.
She certainly hasn't had the childhood I would have wished for her; she has experienced anxiety, panic attacks, periods of unhappiness. I have done my best to equip her with the skills to cope. I do feel partly responsible - But I believe that the damage that will be done by trying to exclude him from DDs life is far greater than is being done through regular contact.

I assumed people would know I was speaking about my own experiences. I have not met every single cafcass worker. I have not had a court case with every single judge and every single solicitor.
My responses have been based on my own court case which ended this year and what my solicitor had said, such as 'if we delay until ds is nearer 6 we can ask for his wishes to be taken into consideration' on that basis I would hope a child double his age with no special needs could have their say.
I was very lucky with my case, I had legal aid, a fantastic solicitor and a sympathetic judge I do know that

RandomMess, that is a really helpful post .

You don't need a solicitor to write to his solicitor - you can do that and save ££££

I would ask about him paying for and providing his hair for testing for drug use (that is not usual when there have been drugs involved)

It be a case of drafting and redrafting a letter. Calm, factual and raising only points that would be "of interest" to cafcass/court/social workers.

Good luck!

Thank you! Sounds like you think it's wise to lay out the concerns up front, not wait for court?

Yes because it shows

1. You are reasonable
2. Supportive of contact
3. Only want DDs (and your) concerns addressing

So far from the bitter ex being obstructive you are the nurturing & caring resident parent keen to enable a relationship between DD and the non-resident parent.

Kind of takes the wind out of their sails, starts giving them enough rope to hang themselves, saves you a fortune!!!

You want contact, that's great - I'm thrilled, please will you do x y z to reassure DD that it will be appropriate and suggest a plan to build up to what she would like ( alternate weekends). Will be interesting to see how quickly he stops throwing his weight around when you aren't "fighting" anymore.

Is you ex someone who is more concerned at "winning" then anything else?