Please help

[BeautifulLiar]

After getting counselling three years ago, I cut off my toxic, bastard parents. So many reasons why, but life was so much better after I did.

Within months they sought legal advice to see my children (I was pregnant with the third - they were only bothered about PFB, but obviously requested to see them all).

I was devastated. Our solicitor (we got legal aid back then - my parents are loaded) said they'd be very likely to get access. I didn't want to go to court. I was 23, heavily pregnant and with no confidence as a legacy of their abuse. We agreed to once a month contact. My dad had to do all the pick ups - I'd be happy if I never saw my mother again. She was always far worse to me - it was clear she hated me. My dad enabled her though. Anyway...

Tomorrow my dad moves to the Middle East for a few years potentially. I thought I could finally escape this contact nonsense. He's just text me saying

"Mum will pick the children up on Sunday 3rd may."

I tried to say look; they're our children, not yours, and we decide where they go/don't go. She's toxic, and I don't want them round her - I don't want to see her either! I still have nightmares about her - one last night funnily enough.

He text back a log message but along the lines of "how can you do this to your children? And to mum? If you refuse to let her see them we are going back to the solicitor."

I'm trying so hard not to cry. We cant afford a solicitor. im SICK of my parents being able to dictate my life still, even though they were disgusted and repulsed when i got pregnant at 18! What the fuck can I do?

Can you get your partner to do hand over .

If it is a requirement of the order that your father does the collection and return you could, strictly speaking, refuse to hand over to your mother. However you'd expect them to take it back to court to change that requirement, and you should be seen to be helpful rather than obstructive. Is there a third party who could do the pick ups?

There seems to be quite a back story here. Did you file a statement in the previous proceedings in which this was mentioned, or was there a CAFCASS report?

Husband will definitely have to do hand overs. I replied saying I'm willing to consider contact every three months. I got no reply, and now my dad has gone. I don't have my mums number, I'm assuming he's given her mine but haven't heard anything.

I never got to court as I was too scared, but in the solicitors letters we agreed my dad would do hand overs.

No cafcass report as no court. I did say about how social services were involved with me as a child. They just wrote back "when we threw the shoe at Beautiful it wasn't supposed to hit her in the eye" and that was that?! We also requested a letter from her GP to confirm she was mentally well (lots of issues in the past - my dad even told me she'd become seriously ill with depression because I wouldn't let her see PFB) but that never happened.

If I end up getting another solicitors letter, would I be ok to write back stating that dad was supposed to do the handovers, not mum, but I am willing to consider every three months?

Could I even use the fact that he's moved away against them? He was saying in this message about how much my children love their nana and will be so upset and how could I do this to them... Yet they won't see him for maybe years??

It never got to court I meant, not I

Well the first question is, do your children enjoy the contact?

If so, and if you feel that they would benefit from contact continuing then you're going to have to be a bit flexible.

If, however, they don't, then you are perfectly within your rights to refuse contact altogether as there is no court order.

Your parents will then have to make an application to the court for permission to apply for a contact order (now child arrangements order). They are likely to get over that first hurdle, but if you have very good reasons why you don't feel that the children should see their grandparents (and you're going to have do disconnect from the abuse you suffered yourself), then the court will obviously take those reasons into account.

A cafcass officer will be ordered to meet with everyone involved and file a report concluding with their recommendation as to whether, and if so how, contact should proceed.

Thanks. I think they do enjoy going. But once every three months is plenty, surely? They also enjoyed our caravan holiday and swimming but we won't be going all the time!

I know the abuse I suffered doesn't directly affect the children, but she has done it in front of them, when I used to see her. For example screaming at me how I'm a dirty slit and banging on the bathroom door while I tried to bath my son (then 2). Throwing nappies full of piss at me while I was pregnant.

I don't know how much she's going to try to turn my children against me. Im terrified.

Eww, slut, not slit!

Do not be intimidated by solicitors letters. solicitors are not 'the law' . only a court can order you to do something. there is no solicitor in the land who can require you to do anything even if you agree it. it'd simply a tactic bullys use on people who are too naive to know the difference. So the current agreement is not worth the paper its written on !. However, if you do think the dcs benefit then allow contact to continue on your terms. ie every 3 months. if they want more than that then let them take you to court. not just get a solicitors letter. it will cost them £££ unless they do it all themselves. they will have to fill in a c100 stating why dgc should have contact. you then have the right to respond to that statement in writing. the judge will look at both statements and unless it's very black or white - order cafcass reports. - Where they will talk to all parties concerned and then make a recommendation to the judge (which he generally follows ) all in all it takes a while, but at the moment the ball is all in your court. there is NO order, and they ha e NO right in law to anything to do with YOUR children... if you find them intimidating can you not get your OH to deal with them.

They might get free holidays to Dubai out of it when they are a bit older - not necessarily a bad thing. However as said above there is no court order so just say that every 3 months is all you can offer .

The existing arrangement is actually worth something. It's the starting off point for one.

You once felt that was the right arrangement for your children. The onus would be on you to convince a court why it should be changed. Not saying you won't be able to. Just that the onus is on you.

Sorry you are in such an awful situation Beautiful.
I agree with Patch about the use of Solicitors to bully you.
Your father has chosen (?) to go to the Middle East for possibly years - that would indicate HE is not so bothered about having direct access to his gc's, is he?
If it were me, I would also be concerned if one of the parties allowed access to my Dc's lived in another country, especially outside the EU, in case they decided to attempt to take them there against my wishes. Or am I just being paranoid here?

You're just being paranoid, and potentially scaring OP for no reason whatsoever. Only a parent with PR can get a passport for a child.

Is there a bang head against a wall smiley??

If both you and the biological father of the children agree there should be no contact between the children and grandparents the court will not order it because it can not be enforced when both the biological parents agree. I know from experience.

But court and who would "win" shouldn't be the issue here. The children should win, if they want to go let them, don't deny them thier grandparents.

I never felt it was right to send them there! It broke my heart. But the solicitor said they were likely to get access if it went to court, and I was too scared

Yes, my dad chose to move there. I said from day 1, this is all my controlling mother's doing. And I was right.

It's not Dubai, but yes they're more than likely to be offered free holidays. My parents use their money to get everything they want.

And I'm not denying my kids their grandparents if I'm offering every three months to be fair.

If you really and truly believe that it's not in their best interests to then don't let them go. I must say that if your mother is not prepared to treat you with respect then it wouldn't be in there interests. All negativity should be set aside by all parties for the sake of the children. If she can't do that then that's her problem. If she treats the children well and they want to see her then ask yourself deep down if this is your issue with your past rather than concern for your children. It a huge decision, make the right one but do not be bullied by solicitors or anyone else. Good luck!

Thank you!

I haven't heard from her so can only assume there will be a solicitors letter in the post soon. So scared. We definitely can't afford a solicitor. Can I just write back myself? What would be a good thing to write?

You can write back yourself there are probably even some template letters online that you could use as a starting point. You need to be as professional and emotionless (I know it's hard) as possible. State your reasons clearly and why you feel it benefits the children to reduce their contact. It's always best to have a solicitor do it but you absolutely can self rep if you can keep calm and not let yourself be provoked, solicitors want to win and even they will attempt to provoke you into sounding irrational in writing if they can. Definitely have it proof read by someone you trust. Avoid being derogatory to you mother, state fact that you can prove. Good luck.

Thank you very much.

The irony is that a few months ago when I spoke to her she said she doesn't think she'll be able to cope with all three on her own.

This is just a power trip - I'm not allowed to call the shots, ever.

Alternatively....they are your children !!! YOU don't need to 'deal' with anything, as said previously, solicitors/solicitors letters are not 'the law' you can simply ignore. It is not against the law in any way. I say this based on the fact that your parents sound bullying and toxic and you were pushed into the previous arrangement by solicitors who told you ' they would win' if you went to court. They will ALWAYS tell you this no matter how weak their case, they work and are paid for by your parents, and their job is to intimidate you in to doing their bidding with minimum of fuss. - this worked perfectly last time, you rolled over at the first letter. ! My way forward with this would be ignore ignore ignore. They can send all the solicitors letters they like at their expense. Then they can apply for a court order, where they must go through mediation, - I would contact the MEDIATOR not them or their solicitors and explain that you are not prepared to mediate due to their abusive behaviour. They can then go to the trouble of applying to the court. Then more than likely the judge will order CAFCASS reports and you can explain to them why contact is against they're best interests OR Why you only want minimum 3 monthly contact.all in all make them jump through the hoops. It is very unlikely they will get contact against the wills of Two parents with PR. what is the opinion of the dcs father ? I am guessing you don't have a partner, but can you get the dcs father on board ?. All the above is how to be as awkward and annoying as possible and meant as advice as to how to deal with bullies. If however you do want your dcs to see gps, then I would attend mediation but ask for shuttle mediation where you are not in the same room so there is less chance of intimidation.

Thanks, kittens. Unfortunately it was my own solicitor who said they'd be likely to get access (as I'd previously "let them" - ie felt obliged to/they let me think I had no choice but to ask them for help when I worked nights/went to uni. I wanted a local childminder, they said no, I'd have to put PFB in the nursery five minutes from them, so they could do pick ups - then they moaned about it and let me down all the time!).

I do have a husband, yes. He's not pfb's dad, but we've been together since he was 1. Only me on birth certificate. DH knows my parents are nuts, he was there when my dad was holding my son and called me a cunt, he was there when I my dad said he was going to kill me if I didn't do what he said. Hmm, maybe I should stsrt logging all this down. They also constantly changed the times/dates that had been agreed, for example "we can't have the children as planned is Saturday because we need to sort through the attic" ?!

My parents will definitely take this to court, they have plenty of money and will never, ever let me "win".

We agreed no mediation last time because of the past abuse so hopefully I wouldn't have to go through that.

I'm not going to "roll over" this time (don't mean that in a snarky way - I really did last time!). I'm older, wiser, more confident and don't have to content with pregnancy hormones.

Praying they'll agree to every three months, I don't think I can cope with court alone.

Sorry about all the typos!

If you are the only person on the birth certificate, then you are the only person with PR (unless bio dad has been to court to get it). It is extremely unlikely that the court would go against your wishes.

My DDs grandparents took me to court, it went all the way to final hearing but on the day the judge made no order. As there is a law that says that the courts can only make an order if it is in the interests of the children to do so. It would be down to your parents to prove that the children would suffer if they didn't have the contact.
Suggesting that you have allowed it before so it should continue is not strictly true, it shows that you have done everything in your power to make this work and been reasonable, but you have now been left with no choice because of their refusal to behave appropriately.

If your dad is away will you mum really do it herself? You might find she's doesn't bother if she has to do it alone.