Car dealership changed company name and are now saying not liable.

[MrsKoala]

We bought a car for £2900 in June. On the way home from the dealership the cars break light was flashing and bleeping madly - it was evident there was a big problem. DH pulled over and called them from the side of the road and they were apologetic and said to take it into a local (the dealership was other side of London and we live in Kent) garage and then send them the invoice - they were sure it was just something small.

Anyway, the garage said it was a massive computer fault and would need a very expensive new part which cost about £2k and that the car wasn't worth repairing.

We contacted the dealership and they shouted abuse at me, then hung up and never answered any more of our calls.

We contacted trading standards/citizens advice and they advised us to send a series of letters giving 28 days notice that we would start legal proceedings. In all 4 letters were advised to be sent. None were acknowledged and were returned (recorded deliveries).

We proceeded with a court claim after advice from trading standards that we could show that we had done all in our power to resolve this.

We now have had a letter from the dealership acknowledging our claim but saying they have added LTD to their company name and became incorporated subsequent to our purchase (on the day after our first letter was received) and therefore 'have nothing whatsoever to do with the claim'.

Is this right? Can they do this? I am so cross that the advice we had has actually helped them. :(

i have tried and can't find his name anywhere. i think it was probably a fake name. :( is that possible?

Do you have the MOT certificate? Is there any info on that about names - I think it needs an individual to be listed?

It might be worth checking the details on www.gov.uk/check-mot-status anyway in case there is any obvious discrepancy you can use as leverage.

Assuming they did the MOT, of course ...

Anything in the vehicle log book? You can ask the DVLA for info about previous owners (assuming the dealership did register itself as an owner) if you have 'reasonable cause' www.gov.uk/request-information-from-dvla

I don't know also if spending £4 on a Land Registry search for the dealership site would be worthwhile? The owner may have nothing to do with either the sole tradership or the limited company, but you never know. Many leases have to be registered (to protect the lease-holder), and I don't know if it is possible this way to find out what individual's name was recorded on the lease at the time of the sole tradership. Someone at the Land Registry might know..

If the person you bought it from is an individual, then the sale might be classified as a private one (as opposed to trade).

If this is the case, then the car only needs to be 'as described' not 'of satisfactory quality' as a trade sale needs to be.

The fact that you inspected the car prior to purchase would probably mean you have no claim at all, as you accepted the goods 'as seen'

You really need to clarify whether it was a private, or trade sale before you go any further.

If the person you bought it from is an individual, then the sale might be classified as a private one

From the description the individual was clearly operating a business selling cars. Even if he was a sole trader there is no way this would be classified as a private sale.

FWIW, I agree. I wouldn't put it past them to try.it though..esp if he was now holding himself out as an individual.

Have you checked your household insurance to see whether you have legal expenses cover?

i haven't checked our insurance. We have have recently moved so only had it since November - would this be covered if it happened in June?

All the paperwork has 'as seen' etc written on it and when we first called and raised it with them some of the shouting/ranting included telling us it was 'as seen' not their responsibility etc, till i mentioned sale of goods act then they hung up and never answered the phone again.

All the previous owners info we have is that of the person they bought it from i think. The MOT was done before they bought it and they said their mechanic had tested it and said it was fine.

We were all over the place. I was heavily pregnant and bleeding so in and out of hospital, we had a toddler to ferry about and DH needed a car to visit his mum. Looking at the paperwork it all seems really vague. However, having only just passed my test, neither of us ever having bought a car before we have/had no real idea what we were expecting. I find all of it really confusing. And tbh driving in general seems way too much hassle than it's worth. Insurance, MOTs, car tax etc just fries my brain - i have no idea how anyone remembers all the guff that is necessary!

I have spoken to DH and he doesn't want to waste any more time and money on it. He is spread very thin at the moment and i don't think he has any energy left for this. Especially if InfinitySeven upthread is right. :(

So they are just going to get away with it and we'll scrap the car.

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate it.

I didn't tackle that one directly but I disagree with much of what InfinitySeven wrote.

Yes, the courts prefer people to try and resolve the issue for themselves but they don't expect them to engage in months of letter writing. You can now write a letter before action giving 14 days to respond which should include an offer to agree without going to court - see the sample letter from CAB. If the trader does not respond you can take legal action. You do not need to write any more letters giving him further chances.

As both babybarrister (who is, as her username implies, a barrister) and I have advised, you do not need specialist legal advice on the question of liability. There is no chance whatsoever that the liability has disappeared. The sole trader may have agreed that the new company is liable when he sold the business to the company which is why I suggested taking action against both. But one or the other of them is definitely liable.

The only point on which I agree with InfinitySeven is that if the sole trader is liable and cannot afford to pay he may be allowed to pay you off over a period of time but it would not be as low as £1 per month. And if you need to send in the bailiffs he will have to pay their fees, not you.

If you give up he will have got away with ripping you off and avoiding his responsibilities under the Sale of Goods Act. It is up to you but I would go for it.

Oh prh, i am very tempted...

...Right. i will go and fish out the paperwork again.

It was bought 25 July (not june sorry) the contract says
*sold as seen trade sale customer acknowledges and accepts no warranty given.

It then has the 'sellers signature' and a name of someone who isn't now registered as the owner of the company.

The MOT is 2/7/14 - 1/7/15. There is no persons name on the MOT certificate - just the garage, which i assume the dealer uses.

I also have he previous owners name - who the garage part exchanged it for i assume.

sold as seen trade sale customer acknowledges and accepts no warranty given.

I wish dealers would stop trying to convince buyers that a second hand car is "sold as seen". It isn't. You have rights under the Sale of Goods Act and you cannot sign those rights away.

Yes, that's what i told them and then they changed the company.

So if i send an action against the guy 'Mark' who was the seller, where do i send it too? I don't have any contact details/address for him?

I may try phoning them again.

Okay - i've just called them. The lady who signed the letter as the company secretary said they have no idea who we are. That the company was started - not bought - on 22 August with no connection to any company of the name we say. She fucked up tho - the new company name is 'x x Autos LTD' and the company we bought it from is 'x x Autos'. SO i asked some questions and she said there company was just called 'x x' and 'didn't even sell cars or have anything to do with cars'. SO i said do you mean to tell me your company is called 'Autos' but has nothing to do with cars? I then asked what they do and she said she didn't know. I said how can you be the company secretary if you don't know what you do?

She blustered and said someone would call me back. I said we would bring an action for 'disclosure of information' (not really sure what i meant!) and they had to tell me the truth.

HOWEVER, She caught me out/showed they had this thought thru because she kept saying 'what is the address on the invoice' and of course there is none. Just the title of the company and no address. We saw the add on Autotrader and called them and they gave me the address over the phone and dh went and saw the car and drove it off. SO we have no proof we got it from that address. So does that mean we are fucked?

Okay i'm a prat - i've just realised the address i have filed the claim to is a slightly different address. Can i resend it to the correct address or do i need to completely re-file?

All the letters before action have gone to the 'correct' address tho.

i have called the CC and they say i can resubmit to the correct address. AND if i get the persons name i can pay a £50 fee to amend the claim to the 'sole trader' if that is the case.

Anyway - worth a punt i suppose. If that falls thru then we will just get rid.

UPDATE

I refiled and won the judgement. Hurrah!

But I have no idea what to do now. I just have a letter saying I have the judgement in my favour and no idea how to proceed.

Can anyone offer advice on what I do to actually get my money back?

Thanks all.

Oh, great news! I remember you posting from hospital when you first bought the darn car, I'm so pleased you won! As for next steps I believe you need to ring the courthouse about this as there are several options from here. They were very good about talking through it when my friend won her case recently.

Cheers but I get the feeling we'll never see a penny of it sadly.

We didn't have a court house, we did it on the government mcol site. I could call them I suppose. I think they are in Coventry.

maybe the Sheriffs can help?
thesheriffsoffice.com/articles/high_court_enforcement_officer_or_county_court_bailiff

MrsK, so you won judgment against an individual sole trader who sold you the car? That person's personal assets, their personal car, house if they have one etc can be seized by bailiffs. If they do not pay you can make that person bankrupt. Do you have his or her full name? You need as many details about them as possible - eg they may be shareholders of the new limited company - buy a company search for £2 of the new company - buy the annual return and the accounts and current information. That person may not be a director or shareholder of the new company but they may be. If that yields nothing pay for some credits on 192.com which searches electoral roll, directorships etc which might yield you information about that person.

If you find their home address you can search on the Land Registry website to see if they own their own property and in whose name. You can also look on google streetview to see what kind of place it is.

You got judgment in default of defence and you can now pay a fee to enforce the judgment. It is so important to get details right such as full name of man you sued and his address when it comes to enforcing so it is very clear who you won your judgment against. Someone today put a sort of part name in a document I looked at. I had to track down their business website to New Zealand and then search through it to terms and conditions and only hidden in those was the full limited company name given as well as the trading name.

The other thing worth checking if the original uindividual sold you the car and charged VAT is there is an EU checker for VAT registration numbers which will often track you back to the individual behind a business even if they are not a limited company. However he may not have been registered for VAT.

When the new company took over the sole trader they may have been an acquisition agreement between the two saying if past debts were taken on - very unlikely.

No, we won against the company name. We still have no name or contact details of any individual.

We can't get access to the car showroom we bought the car from. There are gates/railings around the property and the cars and office at in a kind of underground car park type thing. We don't even know if they are still there. There is no website and no one answers the phone number we have. Sigh.