Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Legal matters

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you have any legal concerns we suggest you consult a solicitor.

Original poster

Death without a will and co habitation

231 replies

RonaldMcDonald · 25/08/2014 22:58

What happens nowadays if you die without having made a will and you were co habiting?
This has happened to my friend.
He has made financial provision for his children but has made no new will since he started to co habit with his new girlfriend
She says that she gets 2/3s of the money and the children the rest split between them
Sounds a bit unfair as his kids are young

Any ideas? She has called the insurance co to tell them she is the next of kin.
Help if poss would be v gratefully received
Ta

OP posts:
Original poster
RonaldMcDonald · 27/08/2014 14:49

She owns the house they lived in and her own business

OP posts:
titchy · 27/08/2014 14:51

Well yes it is up to the Trustees in that case, but they will in no way have made the decision so quickly! Are they aware that there are dependent children and that she owns her own property?

I think you need to make them aware and then maybe leave it all to your solicitor to sort - this will get messy.

sleepyhead · 27/08/2014 14:52

Are you taking this at her word?! Have you spoken to the insurance company, because it sounds like a big load of bollocks to me.

I lived with a male flat mate for nearly 10 years before he got married. I don't see how it could be the case that he could have phoned up an insurance company on my death and claimed my death in service benefit on just his word of our relationship (which was purely flat mates) Hmm.

As far as I'm aware, a cohabiting couple has no more rights in law than any two unrelated people who live together.

titchy · 27/08/2014 14:53

No, adults cannot be classified as dependents unless they are disabled. They can be dependent of course, but that's different.

stupidgreatgrinonmyface · 27/08/2014 14:54

According to this wills never 'expire' due to age, they have to be properly revoked or be invalidated by some, very specific, circumstances.

bloodyteenagers · 27/08/2014 14:55

Phone up the company yourself.
Tell them that this grabby bitch is trying to screw over the deceased children and grabbing stuff that is not hers. That she is trying to take over as executor, but it's you that is named on the will. That they stop talking bollocks to her, and if they persist in talking to her, you will be taking legal action on behalf of the beneficiaries.

She is a callous cow, who is just interested in how she can benefit. She is trying to screw over her step children. The children of the man she apparently loved and wanted to spend her life with.

He made no changes to his will, and maybe that's because he saw her for the money grabber that she is.

You need to step up now.

Any more calls from her. Just email her politely and say look I am one of the executors. Even if I backed out, there are still the others. We are trying to do everything legally as set out in xxx will. If you believe you have a claim to the estate, please put in your request with xxx solicitor. If you have any more questions please contact them.

DayLillie · 27/08/2014 15:06

Can the solicitors talk to the insurance company?

They should know what is what legally, and should be used to dealing with problematic estates. I am sure it is far from unusual.

OldLadyKnowsSomething · 27/08/2014 15:08

Have you seen any official paperwork from the insurance company and/or trustees? They should be communicating with you (and other executors), not her. I have a feeling she's lying through her teeth being a little casual with the actualities...

Itsfab · 27/08/2014 15:15

Seems the girl friend thinks there is status in common-law wife. There isn't. I know someone who has been with someone older for 40 years. She will get nothing when he dies. She has no clue.

Itsfab · 27/08/2014 15:22

I would stop taking her calls.

She is bullying you, trying to steal from his children and break the law.

Do not stop aside.

A will is legal for as long as the writer is alive and doesn't make another one.

I would be telling the solicitor everything she is saying and suggest they really need to speak to the insurers before they start giving away his money!

WellnowImFucked · 27/08/2014 15:30

Sorry she's talking bollox

And I would be very surprised at any company talking to her.

OH's sister died a wee while ago with no will, despite living with her partner for over 10 years her Mum was still her legal next of kin.

As we all had/have a good relationship with her partner the family were happy for him to apply for 'grant of representation' which would give him the legal right to sort everything out.

He however asked that we do this. Death was very sudden and unexpected, he was all over the place.

Even with this doc & the Death Cert we still had to jump through hoops to get everything sorted. Companies just wouldn't talk to us until they saw these docs and that OH could prove that he was the person named on the doc.

So you're left with one of two possibilities; She's lying or she has lied to this companies. Cut and paste from the .Gov website 'A surviving partner who wasn't married or in a civil partnership with the deceased has no automatic right to inherit.'

We also had to deal with Death in service benefits etc. She'd named her Mum as the beneficiary, She MIL wanted the partner to have the money and asked if they could just make the cheque out to him if she submitted a letter. No way, it had to go to her.

But honestly you need to get legal advice

I'm making these companies sound shitty here but all of them were lovely and helpful, but as they said people make sudden and odd decisions after a death, that they would never do 6-12 months later. So legally they have to follow what the deceased has said/signed off.

You as an executor have legal obligations, if nothing else protect yourself.

tribpot · 27/08/2014 15:30

Virtually everything this woman tells you sounds like bollocks to me. You need to hand this over to professionals pronto, particularly since there are children's interests to be protected.

What seems fair to you based on how long they've been together (which is how long?) is irrelevant in law. There is a will. She is not a beneficiary, she is not an executor, she is not a dependent. Plus it doesn't sound like she needs this money, she just wants it!

Let the solicitors handle this without emotion.

WellnowImFucked · 27/08/2014 15:35

Sorry just wanted to say I have no legal experience just the experience of the above and many years seeing people get screwed over.

Am ex HCP and its amazing how family you never knew existed suddenly appear when someone is dying. Yes a large % will be because they do actually care but the amount of time we were asked if we knew where the will was/ had we witnessed a will etc etc was shocking. I heard stories that would make your hair curl.

PetraArkanian · 27/08/2014 15:44

You or your lawyer need to get in touch with the insurance company today and make sure they know ther are children...and in fact the trustees should be following his instructions. In the absence of which I could argue they should look at the will to show who he wanted things to go to! It's going to drag on but they need to know you will be contesting it on behalf of the kids (or their mum will) and that they shouldn't pay anything to gf until its sorted.

Original poster
RonaldMcDonald · 27/08/2014 15:46

I have just spoken to the co. as executor
They say as she was living with him she will be considered as his dependant

The children are also dependants in their eyes.
They say that as far as they know the fund falls outside the instructions of his will. I have queried this as he felt it would form part of his estate and not sit externally, outside his wishes.

I asked about % splits and they had no idea
They will get back to me.

You have all been great

OP posts:
Greengrow · 27/08/2014 15:55

If the main asset is a life insurance policy such as through work and he named her and his children as beneficiaries and it was in trust then it does indeed fall outside the estate and goes to whoever he nominated. I doubt it says to dependants. It will say to named people such as the names of his children and possibly her. Other assets go under the will.

titchy · 27/08/2014 16:05

Green grow read the thread - he did NOT nominate a beneficiary to his death in service benefit therefore it is up to the trustees to distribute.

PetraArkanian · 27/08/2014 16:07

The problem is if he didn't actually nominate anyone! Then it is completely up to the trustees (actually it always is, they are just expected to follow the wishes of the person if possible). I think that if you / the person acting on behalf of his children can show that GF owns the house, has income and didn't need him to pay bills etc then you can argue that she was not a dependent...TALK TO A LAWYER!

Insurance policies are almost always written in trust so that they specifically do not become part of the estate (ie liable to tax), however we now come into the question of how big the estate is. IF the policy plus rest of estate is less than the insurance tax threshold you might want to ask your lawyer whether you can argue that in the absence of any instructions to the trustees it should be part of the estate (and therefore covered by the will). I don't suppose you have any emails from him to say that that's how he thought it would work? The trustees might be convinced to go by his wishes/intentions if you can prove them! Unlike with a will where you go by what is written, regardless of what was meant.

How long was he with GF? That will make a difference to how dependent she is also! Co-habitees can claim to be dependents, but I think that may only be after a fairly long time.

And again I say TALK TO A LAWYER - and make sure it is a good one!

DayLillie · 27/08/2014 16:21

I would think that if the trustees are going to make a proper decision, then they need proof of the extent of the gf's dependency and someone to make representations on behalf of the children.

I would have thought that the 2/3 to a dependent gf and 1/3 to children would have been a scenario in which the deceased lived with a gf together their children. A separate gf and children who are not hers, and competing for the claim is a different matter. Especially if there is not much else in the estate.

Lawyer.

prh47bridge · 27/08/2014 16:32

he did NOT nominate a beneficiary to his death in service benefit therefore it is up to the trustees to distribute

As far as I can see the OP only has the girlfriend's word for this at the moment. Given her record to date I wouldn't trust anything she says.

As others have said, if the life insurance policy was written in trust (which it almost certainly was if it is a benefit from his employer) it does not form part of his estate and it is up to the trustees to decide who should receive any payment. If he has nominated beneficiaries the trustees would normally follow his wishes but they don't have to.

I wonder if, rather than saying the will has no real standing because it is old (which is wrong - a will remains valid until you marry or make a new will) the insurance company actually said that his nomination of beneficiaries has no real standing because it is old. If he made his nomination while he was still with the mother of his children and hasn't updated it since the trustees may feel that it doesn't reflect the situation at the time of his death and that it is appropriate to do something different.

titchy · 27/08/2014 16:34

Prh - OPs post of 15.37 says she has spoken to the insurers who have confirmed no nomination was made.

titchy · 27/08/2014 16:36

Actually it doesn't - scrub that!

Chunderella · 27/08/2014 16:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

angelos02 · 27/08/2014 16:55

Surely she isn't entitled to any of his money. They could have just been house-sharers! Not married and no will. I don't see how she can claim a penny.

KingCrimson · 27/08/2014 17:07

Ronald, you need a copy of the insurance policy if you don't have one (as executor you're entitled to it). Then pass it to the solicitors and let them advise you. Don't take what the insurance company says as gospel without checking with the solicitors.

And next time the girlfriend phones, tell her you have absolutely no choice in the matter; if you do anything other than what it says in the will, the children could sue you later.

Swipe left for the next trending thread